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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 23, 2005 20:57:26 GMT -5
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Post by rockysigman on Dec 23, 2005 21:05:01 GMT -5
You just provided an example of Christmas being less a part of public education, but nothing about that indicated anything about Christ being taken out of Christmas. Try harder.
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Post by rockysigman on Dec 23, 2005 21:06:24 GMT -5
Also, to complain that Jews in Israel are not celebrating Christmas is batshit insane.
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 23, 2005 21:14:57 GMT -5
who is complaining? You asked me for examples, I put them up. I am not complaining about anything I am just answering your question. I guess you didn't click the links I put up. Campaign to abolish X-mas celebration by gentiles Noahide Mivtzaiim materials now available. Anyone interested in obtaining holiday fliers (@ $.25 each) to distribute to their non-Jewish associates, please contact Shmuel or Aaron for more info: [phone number withheld] www.noahide.comWhy Torah obligates all Jews in this campaign: "...according to the known Jewish ruling that Christians are idol worshippers." (Likkutei Sichos 37:198) A gentile...is liable for the death penalty...if he has invented a religious holiday for himself...The general principle is we do not allow them to make new religious rituals and to make 'mitzvahs' for themselves by their own devices. Rather they may either become a Ger Tzeddek and accept all the Mitvahs; or he (the Noahide) should stand fast in his Torah (the seven Noahide Laws) without adding or diminishing...and if he does make some new 'mitzvah,' we lash him, punish him, and inform him that he is obligated with the death penalty for this..." (Rambam Mishne Torah—Hilchos Melachim 10:9) "...it is however obvious that if it will be perceived by them (the nations), also the matter of the negation of shituf, until they even have some recognition of the Unity of Hashem—that 'there is nothing else besides Him'; this will add both in their carefulness and meticulousness in fulfilling the seven Noahide Laws [with all of their ramifications!] and also in their aiding of Jewish people in all of their matters pertaining to Yiddishkeit and all of their needs in general..." (Likkutei Sichos 25: YudTes Kislev) "Any person who has already worked successfully in this area should try to influence other Jews to do likewise. Resistance should not deter one when attempting to influence a further individual to accept upon himself the task of disseminating the Noahide Laws amongst the nations." (Hisvaduyos 5750 2:18-19)
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Post by rockysigman on Dec 23, 2005 21:17:00 GMT -5
Okay, I'm sorry, there's a tiny tiny fringe of completely powerless people who want to irradicate the holiday, who have nothing to do with anything that is being discussed in the "Merry Christmas" vs. "Happy Holiday" debate. Either that, or that website is satire, which I find just as likely.
Unless you're suggesting that Jews are trying to eliminate Christmas. If so, then I guess I must have missed that meeting. Any other Jews here who can give me the minutes?
If I'm reading you right, this tiny tiny fringe group of Hassidic Jews in California that no one has heard of, that you probably didn't know anything about until you googled it just now, have ignited this entire cultural war. I'm not buying it.
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 23, 2005 21:24:09 GMT -5
Actually I have known about that website for a long time. I could find more examples. I have a mother-in-law to be that just retired from a teaching job in New York, if you would like I will call her and get all the dirty details for ya.
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 23, 2005 21:28:16 GMT -5
It has nothing to do with Jews. I really don't care who they are. As a matter of fact I put up a similar link to a Jewish group that is fighting 'for' Christmas. I put it up on CE a few weeks back. I said look Judah speaks www.jews4fairness.org/
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Post by rockysigman on Dec 23, 2005 21:28:24 GMT -5
Considering the examples you posted earlier of Christmas supposedly being banned from school were really examples of Christmas being treated as something to be taught about rather than something to be expressly celebrated, a couple more examples of that won't really say anything to me. None of it has anything to do with Christ supposedly being removed from Christmas (what does that even mean?) and none of it shows that anyone in schools or in society at large (okay, other than a couple fringe folks that no one has heard of on some website you found) are trying to do any harm to Christmas whatsoever. All it shows is that a few people (still not many people) are trying to treat Christmas the same as they treat other holidays so that all people, Christians and non-Christians alike, can be treated the same. And even then, not too many people are even bothering with that. Most people are carrying on with their Christmas/Hannukah/whatever celebrations the same as usual and not thinking twice about any of this. Christmas is alive and well, and there is no attack on it. Sorry.
I'm pretty tired of this debate, so I think I'm going to step away from it for now.
Happy Hannukah, Tuatha!
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 23, 2005 21:29:49 GMT -5
Do check that link out, there is an article on there called
12/20/05 Yes, Virginia, There Is A War On Christmas - Whatever The New York Times Tells You
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 23, 2005 21:32:54 GMT -5
Happy Hannukah back to you!
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Post by Galactus on Dec 23, 2005 22:37:37 GMT -5
I'm with Rocky here, other then a few instances of fringe groups stirring up shit...amittedly on occasion they have been successfull...I see no evidence of a "war on Christmas".
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 24, 2005 0:46:57 GMT -5
DAILY TRIBUNE Royal Oak, Michigan December 22, 2005
Berkley modifies nativity ACLU drops lawsuit threat by Christy Strawser
BERKLEY, Mich. — The city blinked in its nativity scene standoff with the American Civil Liberties Union, as a conservative group known for fighting human rights ordinances across Oakland County offered to battle on Berkley’s behalf.
Berkley officials decided Wednesday to move a red and white Santa mailbox closer to the nativity scene, which includes a holiday tree and Star of David. The secular Santa was enough to appease the ACLU, which dropped its lawsuit threat.
“We’re definitely taking it seriously,” said Wendy Wagenheim, a spokeswoman for the ACLU. “We’re going to be meeting with them on Feb. 6 to discuss a long-term solution. But they’re going to add a Santa’s mailbox and at least one snowman and they’ll leave that up until the end of the season. For right now, that’s enough.”
The American Family Association, headquartered in Tupelo, Miss., had urged the city not to surrender to the ACLU in an e-mail to city officials that said its legal staff would defend the Christmas display — for free — in court.
If Berkley accepted the offer, the AFA said it may take the issue all the way to the Supreme Court. But that’s apparently not necessary.
“There has to be a balance, and we will take it into consideration in early January to find out where we go in subsequent years,” Mayor Marilyn Stephan said.
If the nativity issue had gone to court, City Council would have had to decide whether to accept help from the AFA, a group controversial for its anti-gay stance. The AFA fought human rights ordinances successfully in Royal Oak and Ferndale in 2001 and unsuccessfully in Huntington Woods.
The AFA was drawn to Berkley when officials refused to accept the ultimatum from the ACLU, which said the city violated the U.S. Constitution with its 65-year-old traditional Christmas display. Berkley officials tossed around the idea of adding Santa Claus or Frosty the Snowman to make the display more secular and rejected the notion Monday.
“Thank you for refusing to be intimidated, bullied or bluffed by the American Civil Liberties Union’s annual anti-Christmas campaign,” Gary Glenn, AFA-Michigan president, wrote to city officials.
Then city officials changed their position.
“It’s more convenient for little children anyway when Santa’s mailbox is in the front (of City Hall),” Stephan said.
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 24, 2005 0:53:18 GMT -5
“The American Family Association of Michigan condemned the Tollgate Woods subdivision for ordering the Novi homeowners to remove the figures of the Baby Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the Three Wise Men from their lawn. The organization even offered to provide the Samonas free legal representation and to pay up to $100 a week in fines the neighborhood association was threatening to levy against the family until the Christian nativity scene was removed.”
NOVI NEWS Novi, Michigan December 8, 2005
Samonas savor victory Novi family celebrates with a live nativity scene, caroling
by Ramez Khuri
It was 9 a.m. last Thursday and the Samona household was hopping with glee. The house was packed with close relatives who just witnessed a live nativity scene in their front yard — an event that Joseph Samona called a celebration of victory.
As he sat at the kitchen table with his father, Frank, eating a hearty bowl of soup, the 16-year-old described the morning.
“We had 95.5 FM come over here, and they actually did the live nativity scene,” Samona said. “We had a lot of people come by, who we didn’t even know. My middle school principal even came by. It was an exciting day for all of us.”
It was a beautiful scene, complete with singing, Samona said.
“The police rolled by and said they did not receive any complaints,” said Samona. “It was just a great day, and it was taken very seriously. I made sure before they came that it would not be a mockery.”
To further celebrate, a group of people organized a Christmas carol sing-a-long last Sunday evening on the Samonas front lawn.
The Samonas were celebrating a letter they received from the homeowners association that previously ordered the family to remove a nativity scene display on their front lawn. It was a letter of retraction and an apology.
The Novi family says the nativity display is something they’ve been putting up for the last three years, without hearing any complaints.
The American Family Association of Michigan condemned the Tollgate Woods subdivision for ordering the Novi homeowners to remove the figures of the Baby Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the Three Wise Men from their lawn.
The organization even offered to provide the Samonas free legal representation and to pay up to $100 a week in fines the neighborhood association was threatening to levy against the family until the Christian nativity scene was removed.
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Post by Galactus on Dec 24, 2005 0:54:31 GMT -5
Why is it so terrible to think that the government shouldn't endorse any single religion?
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 24, 2005 0:59:33 GMT -5
How on earth do you interpret the once a year display of a nativity scene at Christmas time as the government endorsing a religion?
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