Questions for Rockists:

[pauledwardwagemann]

kmc said:

skvor, it was actually Atlantic, then Capitol in '96. Go figure.

Paul, that's crazy talk. You cannot possibly prove that being on a major would fuck your band up. Prove it. Where are the good bands that have been fucked specifically because of their label, and due to nothing else?

Let me use the example of Neil Young for instance. In the early 80s he signed with David Geffon. After having a son born with a major birth defect Young's music went into some strange places. Places that werent economically viable for Geffen. So Geffen started demanding Young make music like he used to. Any lesser artists probablly would have caved into the pressure. But Young took a stand and kept doing what he wanted. Geffen actually took young to court, sueing him for not making 'Neil Young' albums. The point is that recording artists dont need this kind of bullshit. Young prevailed, but there are countless others who have not. There are countless Hairbands from the 80s who make a fairly good debut album on the strengh of songs they had written before they had been signed. Then they get signed, and all the sudden they are famous and there is all this bullshit, all these drugs and women and pressures to fit this certain format, etc.
I'm not a fan of hair metal, I'm just using it as an example. I coudl have used grunge or emo or anything else. The point is that unless you acknowledge that there is a difference culture at work once a band is on a major, then you are fooling yourself.
I freely admit that since the Indie explosion of the early 90s, Indies have become increasingly similar to the majors, but there are still DIY options and tiny artist-friendly Indie labels out there where an artist can simply record his music and not worry over all the bullshti 'music industry' nonsense.

[Galactus]

Also I can see how there was a big difference in the sound quality of CDs and vinyl until recently. The technology has improved so much I'd go so far as to say many CDs made in the last three to four years sound better then vinyl...if there was really much noticable difference to the average ear anyway...

[Galactus]

Look PEW, if you think girls and drugs and pressure show up magically after signing to a major label you need to spend more time at your local club.

[Kensterberg]

All music labels ultimately exist for one reason: to make money. Frankly, serious musicians (in any genre) generally have the same goal: they want to make enough money to (at a minimum) support themselves without having to keep a day job. If an artist releases an album that doesn't make money for the label, the label might forgive them if there are some other good reasons for keeping them around (i.e. they help with attracting other artists who are making money for the label; the artist seems to have a lot of potential, and the label believes that investing in him/her now will pay off down the line; etc.). Because big labels have traditionally had more profits to rely upon, they have in many cases been able to support artists through more inconsistent albums than have smaller labels.

That Neil Young example above actually supports this point. Geffen was a minor label -- yes, David Geffen had been a player for a long time, but his fledgling label didn't have a ton of cash in the bank to offset slow selling new releases. Geffen spent a good chunk to get Neil Young, in large part b/c he believed in Young's vision (to that point), and because Young had established that his albums could be counted on to reach certain sales goals. But instead of giving Geffen albums that his fans would buy, Young produced utter crap like Trans (unlistenable electronica) and Everybody's Rocking (unlistenable rockabilly). Despite Geffen's efforts to promote these things, no one bought them. I was in high school during this time, and Young was a joke b/c of these records! He seemed to be just willfully screwing with his listeners, and his label. In 1984, I don't think there was anyone who would have faulted David Geffen if he had gone and beat the hell out of Neil. Yeah, somebody got screwed in that case, and it wasn't the "artist" it was the label. Because of the financial problems that Young's deal created for the label, they were in real danger of going under for a time. Thank god other guys like Peter Gabriel followed their particular muses in directions that were more compatible with the popular zeitgeist (and were both critically and commercially lauded).

Young's early eighties output was crap, pure and simple. It may have some appeal today when heard as an attempt to understand his son's illness (autism, wasn't it?), but when it was released, Trans was simply an unlistenable mess. And I can't think of a single good reason to listen to Everybody's Rocking, either today or 25 years ago. Utter crap. Young is lucky that he had a label that was indulgent enough to release it for him. You can bet that if Nirvana had shown up with a rockabilly album as the follow-up to Bleach, Sub-Pop would've refused to release it, or at best would have pressed up a couple hundred copies and dumped 'em.

[pauledwardwagemann]

ded said:

Also I can see how there was a big difference in the sound quality of CDs and vinyl until recently. The technology has improved so much I'd go so far as to say many CDs made in the last three to four years sound better then vinyl...if there was really much noticable difference to the average ear anyway...

Well I may not have teh most expensive digital equipment, but I can always tell a difference between the sampled bites of digitial versus the continuous smoothness of vinyl. I think Neil Yong described the difference as like being bombarded with thousands of tiny little ice cubes versus taking a nice warm bath--or something like that...

Also, Geffen was a squrrilly little homosexual--I hardly think he could have beaten the crap out of Neil Young (who david crosby referred to as Sampson). The point is, the record label has no right telling the artist what to make. This is a distraction, this is the pressure I'm talking about. Fuck David Geffen--what the fuck did he ever do that was of creative genius?

[pauledwardwagemann]

Ken, when is the last time you actually listened to Everybody's Rockin? Maybe in the midst of the synth crazy dance/pop 80s it didnt seem too cool, but try listening to it with a bit more perspective. Here's a "Wonderin" YSI for your listeningn pleasure*:
www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=C655656A793CA541

(*sound better on vinyl, by the way)

[rockysigman]

pauledwardwagemann said:

ded said:

Also I can see how there was a big difference in the sound quality of CDs and vinyl until recently. The technology has improved so much I'd go so far as to say many CDs made in the last three to four years sound better then vinyl...if there was really much noticable difference to the average ear anyway...

Well I may not have teh most expensive digital equipment, but I can always tell a difference between the sampled bites of digitial versus the continuous smoothness of vinyl. I think Neil Yong described the difference as like being bombarded with thousands of tiny little ice cubes versus taking a nice warm bath--or something like that...

Also, Geffen was a squrrilly little homosexual--I hardly think he could have beaten the crap out of Neil Young (who david crosby referred to as Sampson). The point is, the record label has no right telling the artist what to make. This is a distraction, this is the pressure I'm talking about. Fuck David Geffen--what the fuck did he ever do that was of creative genius?

David Geffen couldn't beat up Neil Young because he's gay? That's ridiculous. It's not even like Neil Young is some towering tough guy. He's a scrawny little dude. Just 'cause he's gay doesn't mean he can't kick ass if so inclined.

[Galactus]

Young's Geffen albums were not really a reaction to Geffen trying to make him sound more commercial...and Reprise is and was hardly an independent label. Due to Young's work with his kids and Lionel trains he beame interested in trying to understand music on the same level his kids did. That's what Trans is and had Geffen not pitched a royal fucking fit he would've very likely gotten the album he was looking for next. Young considered Geffen a very good friend and when he tried to sue him Neil took it pretty hard...expecially becuase of what the music represented to Young personally. So much of the remainder of his stay at Geffen was an active attempt to not give David Geffen what he wanted. I don't agree his 80's output was crap. Old Ways is actually pretty good for a straight up 80's era country album and except the production Landing On Water and Life ceratinly have highpoints and Bluenotes is just a good album....mostly.


Everybody's Rockin' is just terrible though. Really really aweful.

[Kensterberg]

I'm getting ready to go home right now, so I'm not gonna d/l the Neil Young right this moment. And actually, I was pretty receptive to rockabilly back in the early eighties (when I was still listening to Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry on a regular basis). But Everybody's Rocking sucked, and Neil knew it. And Trans (and the other similar record he made) sucked even worse.

Young fucked Geffen, pure and simple. Any pressure he felt, he brought on himself.

BTW, have I ever mentioned that IMO Neil Young is a pretentious ass? I'm hardly a member of the Neil Young fan club. IMHO the man has never made a single legitimately great album (the best of 'em are marred by poor production or over-reaching and pretention), and is one of the most over-rated artists in rock.

[Kensterberg]

Bluenotes is actually a pretty good album. All the rest of those that Mantis mentioned sucked, but Bluenotes did not suck. First time that was true of a Neil Young studio record since Rust Never Sleeps (which is over-rated, but which did not suck).

[Galactus]

I admit I'm a bit of a NY fanatic and am generally very forgiving of his music. Evebody's Rockin' and Are You Passionate are horrible. Just terrible the both of them. I do honestly like Landing on Water though.


...an' that's why we don't want to be good!!!!

[Galactus]

pauledwardwagemann said:

ded said:

Also I can see how there was a big difference in the sound quality of CDs and vinyl until recently. The technology has improved so much I'd go so far as to say many CDs made in the last three to four years sound better then vinyl...if there was really much noticable difference to the average ear anyway...

Well I may not have teh most expensive digital equipment, but I can always tell a difference between the sampled bites of digitial versus the continuous smoothness of vinyl. I think Neil Yong described the difference as like being bombarded with thousands of tiny little ice cubes versus taking a nice warm bath--or something like that...

It's all in your head.

[kmc]

Yes, but Geffen was gay, so Neil Young was right.

[pauledwardwagemann]

Did anyone download that YSI? "Wonderin" is not a bad song. In fact I've also heard an accoustic verion of it that is really good. I'm not gonna get into trying to defend Neil Young. He's Rock Royalty IMO--one of only about four others who I will defend to the death (dylan, lennon, reed and westerberg). I mean gee whiz, the man made a couple weaker albums while he was going through the personal crisis of having not one--but two sons born with diseases that made them unable to live life without having a wheel chair. How dare he!?!

[Paul]

pauledwardwagemann said:

skvorisdeadsorta said:

I thought that it wasn't Atlantic, it was Capitol and they were still on Matador at that time. It wasn't until "Brighten The Corners" that they made the leap to a major label and off of Matador completely. At least that was the impression I had, I could be mistaken. Either way, it doesn't really matter as some of the best stuff I have ever heard as been on a major label, like My Bloody Valentine's "Loveless". I can't stand this indie vs. major talk, really. Modest Mouse went to a major and released one of the best records they could have possibly ever made.

Your first album on a major might be allright--since youve probablly already written the songs for that album before you signed with the label. But after that the quality often goes right down the shitter...too many distractions. To0 many outside influences putting pressure on the artists.

Unless your band name is Pearl Jam