Questions for Rockists:

[kmc]

Or Radiohead, or Pavement, or anyone who used to be good on indie who maintains focus. I mean, again, can anyone give me a list of bands who became shitty just because they moved to a major label?

[Paul]

kMc, are you gonna make it to SY tonight?

[rockysigman]

Yeah, that's a pretty shitty argument. Certainly there are a ton of bands who put out great first records and then fizzled. But there is also a large number of bands who didn't really find their sound or their stride until their third or fourth album. The problem with that first group isn't their label, it's that they either aren't driven enough to do it over and over again, or just not talented enough.

[kmc]

nah, paul, I am out tonight. I can't make it to DC, I've got a ton of shit to take care of early tomorrow, so getting home after 3 would kinda suck. I am so lame.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

Ok. Dude. I'm. Starting. To. Not. Like. You.

I prefer vinyl because it's a nostalgic thing for me. I also like that you can see the album art better and I can read the lyrics. If you take care of it, vinyl can last a very long time. Not to mention that if you have the right amp with the right turntable, you can push some serious sound into the air that is for a very pleasurable listening experience, so you won't get any arguments from me on how vinyl is rad.

However with the way that technology has come, I have heard some CDs that are mastered just as well as vinyl. NIN's "With Teeth" being one of them. I have the Vinyl and the CD and I honestly can not tell a difference. I have also heard some vinyl that was mastered really badly that doesn't hold a candle to alot of the CDs that I have either.

Also, like I said before, if you think you can tell the difference between analog and digital in this day and age, you are not being very honest in my opinion.

Also, there really isn't a neccesity for speakers going past 30Khz, it's called pointless marketing, but I forgot, with your pristene wolrd view, I guess you already knew that. Also, why don't you open up any medical book on hearing and the ear so that you can learn a little more about it.

Also, you're remarks about David Geffen's sexuality was just stupid.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

I take back the not liking you...........you're just a little frustrating.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

I have a question:

What is the true mating call of an African Swallow?

[Kensterberg]

skvorisdeadsorta said:

I have a question:

What is the true mating call of an African Swallow?

Is it a laden African Swallow or an unladen African Swallow?

[Paul]

skvorisdeadsorta said:

I prefer vinyl because it's a nostalgic thing for me. I also like that you can see the album art better and I can read the lyrics. If you take care of it, vinyl can last a very long time. Not to mention that if you have the right amp with the right turntable, you can push some serious sound into the air that is for a very pleasurable listening experience, so you won't get any arguments from me on how vinyl is rad.

However with the way that technology has come, I have heard some CDs that are mastered just as well as vinyl. NIN's "With Teeth" being one of them. I have the Vinyl and the CD and I honestly can not tell a difference. I have also heard some vinyl that was mastered really badly that doesn't hold a candle to alot of the CDs that I have either.

Also, like I said before, if you think you can tell the difference between analog and digital in this day and age, you are not being very honest in my opinion.

I haven't heard enough vinyl to make a good comparison against cds...I've heard some SACDs and they definitly rival vinyl (at least to my ears). Still, something about vinyl just sounds better. I'm no audiophile, so I have no idea how to explain it, but case in point my Arthur CD by the Kinks. This has been remastered and still sounds kinda shitty, but I bought my friend a copy on vinyl for a b-day present and it sounded way better...less hiss, it sounded fuller (whatever that means), and warmer...Same w/ Ten; I have that on wax, and it sounds warmer than my CD copy...I don't really know if warmer is the right word, but there seems to be subtle little differences that makes vinly sound better (at least to me).

Maybe you know since you're involved w/ production and stuff...Is any of what I wrote making sense? I really have no idea how to describe it...hell, maybe its just in my head, but music, to my ears, sounds better on wax.

[Thorngrub]

I think some of us here need to start cutting pauledwardwageman some slack. He has made several valid points, yet they all seem to get steamrolled in the excitement to rebuke minor contentions of those points.

For instance, despite the fact that everyone consistently reminding PEW that a "major label couldn't possibly have an affect on the artist", I think that y'all are being somewhat blinded by your zeal, here.

Because I can see where he's coming from. Can't y'all? Of course *ultimately* a label - whether indie or major - can't really have the final say; but I DO happen to agree with wageman when I consider that all he's trying to point out is how certain conditions in the relationship between the *creative* and *business* aspects of the industry, DO INDEED have an affect on musicianship.

Let's take a breather and try not to overlook this- - wageman is not without his good points - - and I just wanted to acknowledge them here, for one second.

Also PEW, I agree more or less with your observations that "vinyl can sound better than CD". In fact, I am relieved to find another person on the planet who is enthusiastic about that concept, and you worded it very well when you made the comparison that vinyl is based on "continuous movement". I like that observation, very much.

I also like skvor's observation that he prefers vinyl because of the nostalgia factor. Right on. My take on the matter lies somewhere perfectly in between those.

[Paul]

I like PEW...he's brought a lot to the table in the short time he's been here; hope he sticks around.

[Thorngrub]

Of course, it's not just the CD or the record that matters. Those are just 2 isolated components of the whole equation.

An SACD of a modern album like Peter Gabriel's UP has an unfair advantage over a Beatles album recorded in mono, or whatnot. I don't even think an outstanding example of sound engineering such as Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon stands a chance to compete with the SACD technology coming out now.

I do know that a re-issued, standard CD of DSOTM (not your SACD or whatnot) dropped into an ordinary CD player and cranked to "8" on your volume dial, is going to sound a hell of a lot INFERIOR to an original -pressing vinyl edition cranked up to "10 or 12" on a receiver w/solid wattage hooked up to an expensive turntable featuring an expanded dynamic range needle. There's just no comparison: the vinyl wins, hands down. For the same reason you all have mentioned, that "warmer" sound.

But, conversely, were you to put some cheap VINYL re-issue of Dark Side Of The Moon (the most popularly available pressings, easily purchased for $5 or $6 in used bins) onto some inexpensive turntable with a factory -issued standard diamond needle on it, and compared it to a plain ordinary CD of Dark Side, well, guess what -? The CD will sound 10 times better.


It's all in how you set up the input/output of your audial equipment; you have to factor in every variable on both sides of the equation in order to achieve the optimal balance.

[Thorngrub]

pcook said:

I like PEW...he's brought a lot to the table in the short time he's been here; hope he sticks around.

Yes. And not despite, but because of this very thread: sure we may all think "rockjism" is so much hogwash. . .

But just take a look at the post -count herein.

(You got a good thing goin here wageman;)

[Paul]

kmc said:

nah, paul, I am out tonight. I can't make it to DC, I've got a ton of shit to take care of early tomorrow, so getting home after 3 would kinda suck. I am so lame.

bummer. well, let me know next time you trek up to DC for a gig. Perhaps we can meet up for a beer or three.

[pauledwardwagemann]

I'll admit to some degree, I'm playing the devils advocate and exagerating the points. But in general I find major labels to distract musicians from a musicians ture purpose--which is making music (not making money)...