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Post by loudaab on Mar 31, 2007 9:49:17 GMT -5
Who do you put on that list?
(besides hanson and the bacon brothers that is...)
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Post by Galactus on Mar 31, 2007 11:06:51 GMT -5
In no particular order...
Black Flag
The Misfits
Minor Threat
Bad Religion
The Germs
Descendents
Bad Brains
Minutemen
Ramones
Husker Du
A pretty predictable list but true nonetheless.
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Post by loudaab on Mar 31, 2007 11:23:34 GMT -5
In no particular order... Black Flag The Misfits Minor Threat Bad Religion The Germs Descendents Bad Brains Minutemen Ramones Husker Du A pretty predictable list but true nonetheless. Do you consider Stooges and NY Dolls as punk rock or as proto-punk? Since they are not on your list, I imagine you consider them as proto-punk. Also I notice no bands on the list from the late 80s or beyond. Do you think punk lost all its relevence by the late 80s??? |
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Post by Galactus on Mar 31, 2007 11:37:48 GMT -5
Stooges should probably be on there...to honest I just forgot about them. New York Dolls are proto-punk though, glam blues rock. Several of the bands I listed had their best periods in the 80's and beyond, Bad Religion for instance I think was best in their middle period (Suffer through Stranger Then Fiction). In the 80's and ninties more US bands were doing Oi! which is a distinctly british style...and most of them not very well and after that it splintered in various post punk styles...more but different hardcore, emo and pop punk. I went with a traditional approach.
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Post by loudaab on Mar 31, 2007 13:06:17 GMT -5
But which of those bands that you listed were playing punk after 1985ish? One theory I have is that it is impossible to play punk rock exclusively for over three years straight. It seems to me that of those bands on your list who were still making music in the late 1980s were no longer doing mostly punk. They had moved off into oher directions.
With that said my list would be somewhat different than yours, I'm partial to some of the early 80s hardcore bands like the circle jerks, dead kennedys and butthole surfers. I'd probablly throw the Dead Boys on there as well. The NY Dolls are proto-punk IMO also...
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Post by Kensterberg on Mar 31, 2007 14:56:30 GMT -5
In no particular order... Black Flag The Misfits Minor Threat Bad Religion The Germs Descendents Bad Brains Minutemen Ramones Husker Du A pretty predictable list but true nonetheless. X. Television. Blondie. Talking Heads. The last two may not meet the simplistic equation of punk = hardcore, but punk wasn't just louder faster etc. in its American incarnation (nor in its UK form, either, to be frank). Blondie and Talking Heads were integral parts of the NYC punk scene, and belong on this list. And X is IMHO the quintessential American punk band, and the only band to emerge from the LA punk scene that remain essential listening 25 years later. (With the possible exception of the Minutemen). |
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Post by Galactus on Mar 31, 2007 15:03:45 GMT -5
I know Blondie and Talking Heads were part of the punk movemen t but they're not punk. X really should be on the list too...can we make this a top twenty? Lots of great punk bands.
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Post by upinkzeppelin2 on Mar 31, 2007 18:04:34 GMT -5
Fugazi is punk. Correct?
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Post by Kensterberg on Mar 31, 2007 18:12:08 GMT -5
Yeah. But they're not as good as X. |
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Post by upinkzeppelin2 on Mar 31, 2007 18:31:27 GMT -5
Did you listen to the discs yet?
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Post by loudaab on Mar 31, 2007 18:32:11 GMT -5
I know Blondie and Talking Heads were part of the punk movemen t but they're not punk. X really should be on the list too...can we make this a top twenty? Lots of great punk bands. Originally punk came from the streets, the gritty underbelly of urban wastelands. It was nihlistic. It was an expression of desperate stagnation and the suffication that being stiffled in that way caused. Talking Heads and Blondie were not punk. They were of the art scene crowd that attached themselves to exiting energy of the punk movement, but were never actually punk themselves. Television werent punk either, but for different reasons. |
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Post by Kensterberg on Mar 31, 2007 18:49:13 GMT -5
Melaun -- Not yet -- I've been very rushed this last week. They're sitting on my desk here now ... will probably give 'em a go by Monday or Tuesday at the latest.
PEW -- Blondie were very definitely a "punk" band in the popular conciousness of the time. Go back and listen to their first couple of albums again: they were every bit the punks that the Dictators or Television or the Dead Boys were. Hell, Blondie were really as much "punks" as the Ramones were, and no one will argue with a straight face that the Ramones weren't punk. Similarly, it was only their remarkable growth beginning with Fear of Music that Talking Heads moved into something other than "punk rock" or "new wave" with their music. As the band's musical talent became more and more obvious, and their playing moved increasingly into funk and Afro-centric rythyms, they showed the inherent limitation of artificially limiting a band via a preconceived label.
David Byrne's jerky vocals and stage movements, the band's totally DIY appearence, and the fact that they were irrevocably outside the conventional rock and roll mainstream of the time all made them punks, if nothing else than at least by default. And as many, many practitioners of "punk rock" have said, being "punk" was/is all about being yourself, and doing things for yourself. The Heads more than fulfilled this requirement.
Moreover, in order for a label like "punk" to have any definitional validity, it has to be broad enough to encompass the people it was originally used to describe. Go back and read any contemporary reviews of '77 or of their concerts at the time: Talking Heads were a punk rock band. Just because somebody thirty years after the fact has decided that "punk rock" should apply to only a narrow slice of the musical spectrum doesn't make it so. Both Blondie and Talking Heads (and again, TELEVISION!) were punk rock bands in '77.
Punk rock wasn't about playing simplistic music as fast as you possibly could. It wasn't about portraying cartoon charictatures of society (i.e. Dead Kennedys entire catalog), or trying to offend as many people as possible (well, at least it didn't HAVE to be about that), it was about getting off your ass and making music for yourself. You don't have to stay in your garage and practice until you can play like Jimmy Page in order to be a rock and roll guitarist -- you could learn three chords and start your own band, and get up and play as best you can, just as you are. That's what punk rock was. Fuck stereotypical imagery that says that "punk" is just hard, loud, fast music and screaming. Punk rock covered the complex interplay of Television, the quirky outlook and danceability of Talking Heads, and the pop sass and appeal of Blondie, as well as the surf/horror-show aesthetic of the Cramps, the rock-a-billy revivalism and trenchant commentary of X, and the go for broke musical blow-outs of the Minutemen and Husker Du. And a whole lot more.
God, I haven't done a rant like this in ages. I'll get off my soap box now. Punk rock rules.
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Post by loudaab on Mar 31, 2007 19:15:08 GMT -5
PEW -- Blondie were very definitely a "punk" band in the popular conciousness of the time. Go back and listen to their first couple of albums again: they were every bit the punks that the Dictators or Television or the Dead Boys were. Hell, Blondie were really as much "punks" as the Ramones were, and no one will argue with a straight face that the Ramones weren't punk. Similarly, it was only their remarkable growth beginning with Fear of Music that Talking Heads moved into something other than "punk rock" or "new wave" with their music. As the band's musical talent became more and more obvious, and their playing moved increasingly into funk and Afro-centric rythyms, they showed the inherent limitation of artificially limiting a band via a preconceived label. David Byrne's jerky vocals and stage movements, the band's totally DIY appearence, and the fact that they were irrevocably outside the conventional rock and roll mainstream of the time all made them punks, if nothing else than at least by default. And as many, many practitioners of "punk rock" have said, being "punk" was/is all about being yourself, and doing things for yourself. The Heads more than fulfilled this requirement. Moreover, in order for a label like "punk" to have any definitional validity, it has to be broad enough to encompass the people it was originally used to describe. Go back and read any contemporary reviews of '77 or of their concerts at the time: Talking Heads were a punk rock band. Just because somebody thirty years after the fact has decided that "punk rock" should apply to only a narrow slice of the musical spectrum doesn't make it so. Both Blondie and Talking Heads (and again, TELEVISION!) were punk rock bands in '77. Punk rock wasn't about playing simplistic music as fast as you possibly could. It wasn't about portraying cartoon charictatures of society (i.e. Dead Kennedys entire catalog), or trying to offend as many people as possible (well, at least it didn't HAVE to be about that), it was about getting off your ass and making music for yourself. You don't have to stay in your garage and practice until you can play like Jimmy Page in order to be a rock and roll guitarist -- you could learn three chords and start your own band, and get up and play as best you can, just as you are. That's what punk rock was. Fuck stereotypical imagery that says that "punk" is just hard, loud, fast music and screaming. Punk rock covered the complex interplay of Television, the quirky outlook and danceability of Talking Heads, and the pop sass and appeal of Blondie, as well as the surf/horror-show aesthetic of the Cramps, the rock-a-billy revivalism and trenchant commentary of X, and the go for broke musical blow-outs of the Minutemen and Husker Du. And a whole lot more. God, I haven't done a rant like this in ages. I'll get off my soap box now. Punk rock rules. I imagine this was a marvelous rant ken, but I stopped reading at "popular conciousness of the time". If you think popular conciousness of the time has ever been correct about anything, then I imagine you must think George W. Bush is doing just a fine and dandy job in the white house. And if there was anything ever in rock music that cared less about "popular consciousness" theni t was the authentic American punk that began in the 70s. So to use the viewpoint of popular wisdom to argue what a punk band is, is just so off the mark that I cant even take anything that comes after that with any seriousness at all. |
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Post by Kensterberg on Mar 31, 2007 20:24:16 GMT -5
PEW, you're an idiot. There's no relationship between looking at popular consciousness to determine what arbitrary socially constructed category a band fits into and relying upon opinion polls to determine the "success" of a political regime. The former is something that is inherently a social process -- the only reason that "punk" or "jazz" or "blog" have any meaning is b/c we have a social agreement that defines their meaning. So when we talk about "what is punk rock?" (for example) it is certainly a relevant observation to look at who that term was affixed to at the time it was happening. There is no objective reality to the category of "punk rock" it is a social construction that means only whatever the society assigns to it. And in determining what this meaning is, the usage by that society is not merely relevant, it's absolutely essential.
In contrast, the determination of how succesful a political regime is relies upon a separate analysis of the successes and failures of that regime. Many times, this cannot be done on the short term, but in other cases it may be so obvious that no one with eyes to see can deny it. IMO the Bushies have been an absolute disaster from the time they disingenuously argued that the Florida Supreme Court did not have the right to determine how its own election laws (which no one argued were in violation of the Constitution) should be applied in the case of the contested ballots in 2000. But at any rate, this is a subject where the fact of popularity or hatred with the general public is not a component in the discussion. Whether Saddam was popular or not, his regime in Iraq has been demonstrably more successful than the current US sponsored regime at maintaining order, providing for the common defense, and feeding the population.
Popular opinion of a political leader is completely irrelevant to determining that leader's merits and shortcomings. Popular usage of a word is extremely relevant to determining what that word means.
Now shut the fuck up.
Oh yeah, Sleater-Kinney belong on this list. Right up near the top. If any band outside of the original punk scenes c. '75-85 or so deserves the label of "punk rock" it's Sleater-Kinney. And considering that they've been one of (if not THE) best bands in America from the death of Kurt Cobain through their break-up last year, they sure as hell need to be in this discussion.
So does Patti Smith/Patti Smith Group.
And what about the Flesheaters, DOA and Black Flag?
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Post by loudaab on Mar 31, 2007 21:23:04 GMT -5
PEW, you're an idiot... The former is something that is inherently a social process -- the only reason that "punk" or "jazz" or "blog" have any meaning is b/c we have a social agreement that defines their meaning. So when we talk about "what is punk rock?" (for example) it is certainly a relevant observation to look at who that term was affixed to at the time it was happening. No it isnt. Popular opinion means nothing, especially when it comes to defining an ethos, a philosophy that is so far OUTSIDE the mainstream popular opinion. Do we really want to rely on Joe and Suzi Mainstream to define what punk rock is? Come on Ken, you've got to be kidding. What's next? We ask the cast of Friends to define House music for us? Also, I'm on the fence as to whether Patti Smith is punk or proto-punk... Last of all, just because a band plays the same gigs as punk bands does not make that band punk...there was nothing punk rock about the Talking Heads other than the fact that they played the same venues as punk bands. Blondie was Pop Punk at best and Television's guitar work was just too intricate to be considered punk. These bands wer all New Wave Rock (or as some like to call it Art Rock) along with the Modern Lovers, Pere Ubu, Devo, the Cars, etc. |
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