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Post by melon1 on Jul 23, 2004 6:34:31 GMT -5
That's like saying all Christians are fundamentalist, far-right, Pat Robertson-types. Not true.
May I ask why exactly Pat Robertson is compared so often with people that frickin' KILL other people for not believing what they believe? As far as being a Christian "fundamentalist", I believe myself that those who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah will end up in hell if they don't repent. Would that cause you to equate me with a cold-blooded killer? Now if you don't believe what I believe that simply shouldn't bother you at all, because in your eyes it's simply not true. In the Christian religion we believe that vengeance belongs to God and therefore we are to stay out of the way and let God punish the wicked, not take in into our own frickin' hands like the Quran actually teaches its people. When you begin to compare me or Pat Robertson with people that kill in the name of their god, you're only showing evidence that there is hostility within yourself towards your Creator. You are, in effect, showing that you believe what Christians say to be true, but shun it.
This is where it may seem that I'm talking out in the clouds, but trust me, it's worth a read:
There is a powerful delusion coming with a leader like the world has never seen. He will rule everything on this earth by establishing a one-world government, will unite all religions(except one) and will be believed to be by every religion(except one) the Messiah. He will order the mass murder of anyone who still believes that Jesus is the Messiah rather than him and the entire world will be convinced that peace is impossible without doing so. NOTE: Peace IS impossible on this earth until the evil one is done away with. Then it will be proven that Christianity is the only religion that does not teach its followers to kill those who don't believe. Forget the Crusaders and any other group of lunatics who have killed in the name of Jesus. No matter what anyone has done, Jesus never taught His followers to kill people for not believing. But this new "Messiah" will and everyone who doesn't agree with him will be killed. But don't be fooled, he will be VERY EASY to agree with. He will be smarter than anyone we've ever seen or heard with our physical eyes and ears. "He will deceive even the elect, if that were possible."
Maybe that bottom paragraph should have been posted at "Theory Nerds". Oh well, if you don't feel like reading my theory you should at least read my first paragraph.
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Post by chrisfan on Jul 23, 2004 6:48:39 GMT -5
Well said Melon. As you know, there are areas where we agree, and some areas where we disagree in the realm of Christianity. But I think you've done an effective job here of illustrating the difference between the absolute beliefs of some Christians, and the violent ways of some Muslims.
I do agree with the sentiment that has been expressed here that you can't condemn the entire Muslim religion based on the actions of a few. But, as you've illustrated, I think that the extreme factions in the Muslim religion are far from equivilent to the extremes in the Christian religion ... at least those being named here. And, as I said the other day, it concerns me that we're taking the "don't condemn all Muslims" to such a PC level that we're preventing our security efforts from taking reasonable steps to protecting us.
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Post by Proud on Jul 23, 2004 6:57:12 GMT -5
yeah, the conquistadors were such nice people.
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Post by chrisfan on Jul 23, 2004 7:02:15 GMT -5
yeah, the conquistadors were such nice people. I had no idea that Pat Robertson was a conquistador. Damn! He's much older than I thought! |
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Post by Proud on Jul 23, 2004 7:03:17 GMT -5
yup. glad to be educating you.
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Post by melon1 on Jul 23, 2004 7:09:15 GMT -5
As you know, there are areas where we agree, and some areas where we disagree in the realm of Christianity.I wasn't aware of any disagreements, Chrisfan. Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention in the past or maybe I simply forgot. Could you give at least one example? it concerns me that we're taking the "don't condemn all Muslims" to such a PC level that we're preventing our security efforts from taking reasonable steps to protecting us. Truer words were never spoken.....oh yeah, forgot about Jesus. 
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Post by chrisfan on Jul 23, 2004 7:19:00 GMT -5
I wasn't aware of any disagreements, Chrisfan. Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention in the past or maybe I simply forgot. Could you give at least one example? The biggest would probably be the standard difference between fundamental and non-fundamental Christians (at least the way I see it) about entrance into heaven. I agree that Christ teaches that accepting him as your savior is the key to entrance to heaven. It has always at least been my impression that fundamental Christians believe that this must be a formal acceptance, taking place on earth. I've had a hard time buying into that, primarily because it leads me to a question of just when does God give up on us? My answer to that is never. So I have a hard time coming to the conclusion that while we're ALL God's children, and He loves ALL of us, even when we fail to love Him, that He's going to turn his back on more than half of those children, because of failure in one area while on earth. It's a complex issue that I just don't think I give justice to explaining on a message board. BTW -- I gave my dad a copy of Mere Christianity for his birthday, primarily due to your talking about it periodically. It was a BIG hit. Thanks! |
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Post by melon1 on Jul 23, 2004 7:32:41 GMT -5
It's a complex issue that I just don't think I give justice to explaining on a message board.
That it is. I'm sending you a personal message so we can do a little more "justice" to the subject, but being that passersby may be reading this, I think it's necessary to give the short version of my side of our "disagreement."
I believe that we are given our entire lives to accept Jesus and everyone knows that doesn't mean 73 years for everybody. If we pass from this life to the next without accepting the truth, it is we who have rejected God. We would be the ones doing the rejecting. So, in effect, we would be sending ourselves to hell, choosing hell. I will go into more detail in my PM. But if anyone wants to challenge me, I'll be glad to respond.
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Post by melon1 on Jul 23, 2004 7:36:37 GMT -5
Oh, and on C.S. Lewis, you may also consider The Screwtape Letters. Excellent mockery of the devil.
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Post by chrisfan on Jul 23, 2004 7:41:37 GMT -5
Oh I have no problem discussing this on a message board (although I'm not sure if this is the right board or not). I just don't think I always do a good job of putting what is in my heart into words.
In short, while I do believe that the bible gives us all the answers, I don't think that we're totally equipped to understand and comprehend it all in this life. Therefore, I have a hard time declaring that I understand much of anything about God's will as an absolute. My impression has always been that most fundamentalists believe it as an absolute. When you get into something like, as you said, having your entire life to decide not to reject God, I'm one of those people who gets caught up in "But what about a 3 day old baby who dies?" "What about the person in sub-Sahara Africa who never is introduced to Christ?" Then, I also get caught up in the often-deleted line from the Apostle's Creed about Christ descending to hell before ascending to heaven, and I'm left believing that even after death, God does not completely give up on us. What I do know as an absolute is that on this earth, I cannot comprehend AT ALL just what heaven will be.
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Post by Proud on Jul 23, 2004 7:57:10 GMT -5
guess i better pack my bags for hell, then.
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Post by melon1 on Jul 23, 2004 8:09:11 GMT -5
ProudIllness,
Now why would you want to go to a place like that when it can be so easily avoided? Uh-oh. Newsflash! The demons are aware that I'm evangelizing on a secular message board and they don't like it.
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Post by Proud on Jul 23, 2004 8:12:24 GMT -5
heh, i don't want to get into a religious argument because i know those never solve anything, but let me just say that i was a christian once. a long time ago.
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Post by melon1 on Jul 23, 2004 8:23:56 GMT -5
When you get into something like, as you said, having your entire life to decide not to reject God, I'm one of those people who gets caught up in "But what about a 3 day old baby who dies?" "What about the person in sub-Sahara Africa who never is introduced to Christ?" Then, I also get caught up in the often-deleted line from the Apostle's Creed about Christ descending to hell before ascending to heaven, and I'm left believing that even after death, God does not completely give up on us.
God never "gives up on" anyone. People give up on God. As far as the 3 day old baby goes, I have always been taught that there is an "accountability age". I've also been taught that it's age 12. I'll admit that I'm ignorant as to how Biblical that is, the 12 yrs old bit, but I do believe that the Bible speaks of children being accountable once they are old enough to understand. That would mean that any infant would go to heaven and any gradeschool kid, even if he or she had committed murder, would go to heaven because their brain hasn't developed to the point of making a rational decision as complex as concerning eternity. As far as the person in sub-Sahara Africa goes and concerning the scripture about Christ descending into Hades: It is my belief that all the people who died in the great flood and all the people who were slain by God in the Old Testament went to Hades, not Hell. Hell is for those who reject Christ, but Christ had not yet appeared in the Old Testament. Jesus went to Hades and the truth was revealed there just like it was on earth. Believe it or not, there are people in Hades that have refused to believe, just as there are people on earth who refuse to believe no matter what. All people born after Christ's death are responsible for believing in Jesus. You may ask, "How can you demand that, sitting in your cumfy A/C typing away on a computer, with all your luxuries in a land where you never miss a meal?" Good question. It is my belief that Jesus reveals Himself to everyone this day in age at one time or another. If there is a person in sub-Sahara Desert who has never heard the truth, it is my belief that Jesus Himself will visit them before they die if they don't hear about Him word-of-mouth.
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Post by Rit on Jul 23, 2004 8:26:19 GMT -5
Melon wrote:
huh. you are a simpleton then. there is no higher power who cares to act in this world, and if there is, (s)he keeps to himself. who do you think carries out the word of gods? people. plant any old idea in their heads and before long, they're liable to act on it. you personally might not (because you happen to be a message board posting nerd, like all of us) but this is not true for everyone. christians have been killing and massacreing long before the muslims got started. in fact, you might even say they picked up at thing or two from christ-fearers.
fact is, crazy people kill other people who do not share their beliefs, muslim or christian.
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