CE - Volume 2

[samplestiltskin]

btw melon, if you are holding yourself up as an example of a devoted christian, i'm scared of devoted christians. devoted anythings are dangerous.

[chrisfan]

samples said:

Melon – you feel that muslims are wrong and dangerous.

I could be forgetting a post, and if I am, I'm sure I'll be reminded. But when has Melon said that he feels Muslims are wrong and dangerous?

I think that when we get into issues like this, it's very easy, and very problematic, to lose control of the words we choose. This is not black and white. Strangely enough, saying "This is right" does not necessarily mean "that is wrong". (kind of like it's always annoyed me that some people think "God Bless America" means "Screw the rest of the world" as if God can't bless more than one country") The same can be applied to the comment that started all of this, equating Pat Robertson and fundamentalist Christians to the extreme Muslims who are terrorists. ARe there people who kill in the name of Christianity? Yes! Some of those who've murdered abortion doctors come to mind. But that's not Pat Robertson, and that's not fundamentalist Christians. To continue along this line of thinking, one would also come to the conclusion that Hassidic Jews are a bunch of murderers. The point that all religions have nuts who hi-jack their message and wrongly killfor it is a valid one. But IMO, the point that the most fundamental, most strict practicers of any religion are always murderers is WAY off.

FWIW, I also think it's absurd to get into a discussion of "which religion has the most faithful follwers". After all, faithful is practiced in your heart. It CAN be seen in your actions, but isn't always. So, aside from God, how can any of us truly judge faithfulness?

[melon1]

Although it's quite obvious that you want an argument here, I honestly don't mind sparring with you a bit. But persuasion is my method. Argumentation involves an uncontrolled temper. First off, I'll extend a handshake and say,"Let's be friends." ;D "It's God's kindness that leads us to repentance."

I'll start with a scripture you may have never heard: "Wide is the gate and broad is the path that leads to destruction, and many who will enter therein. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life. Only a few find it." Now if only a few have found the way then there's a chance you've never met one of those people and knew at the same time they were on the "straight and narrow". In Revelations, it is written that we overcome the "accuser of the brethren" in 3 ways:1.By the blood of the lamb; 2. By the word of our testimony; and 3.By loving not our lives unto the death. Now, if you're life is in Christ and not your own, it doesn't belong to you. "Not I, But Christ in me," the Apostle Paul says. If you are truly His, if you have found the straight and narrow, you will gladly give up your earthly life in exchange for eternal life. Would you like an example? Remember Columbine? Harris and Klebold asked if anyone was a Christian. A girl responded,"I'm a Christian" and she was killed. Lemme ask you,"Is she a fool?" And does she represent someone who is strong in her faith to you? The fact of the matter, samples, is that there aren't near as many Christians on the straight and narrow as there are Muslims who are willing to die for their faith so they can go to orgie heaven. It proves to me that there is an outside force, one that you and I can't see with physical eyes working against "Christians", comforting them along in an unfruitful life. You are right to point it out and I hope that at least one life will be changed because of it. Thank you.

[Meursault]

I love how the real problems of the world get dealt with after discussions about politics and religion.

[chrisfan]

Meursault said:

I love how the real problems of the world get dealt with after discussions about politics and religion.

Makes sense to me. I can think of any two better arenas to DEAL with the problems of the world that the political and religious arenas. Certainly each of these could deal with the problems BETTER, but both are making efforts to actually deal with them. That can't be said for many other arenas.

[Rit]

shane, that's cause you're mistaken about the world. we've been spinning our wheels since cave-ape times. no progression. the romans were as advanced as us, if not more, just not in the technology advancements field.

we're doomed to argue ideology till the asteroid/nukes/ecologial devastation comes.

[samplestiltskin]

Yeah, okay.. Now I'm reminded of why I don't come to the CE board that much. It's touted as a place of open-mindedness. Guess I haven't got the stomach for all this open-mindedness. See y'all in the sweet hereafter.

[melon1]

we're doomed to argue ideology till the asteroid/nukes/ecologial devastation comes.

Sadly, some are. Those who believe that the human mind can come up with the solution to sociopolitical subjects without the help of a "conceived" God who laughs at man's "wisdom". "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

[samplestiltskin]

THERE IS NO TRUTH! THERE IS NO SOLUTION! AAAUUGH!!!!!

::::runs from CE screaming holding pained head in hands, and tries to forget:::::

[stratman19]

Is it safe to come out yet? ;D

[PC]

I wasn't comparing Pat Robertson to Muslim terrorists. Perhaps I should have worded my earlier statement differently. I was just saying there are many different types of Muslims, as well as many different types of Christians.

Believe it or not, I'm a Christian. I believe in God and I believe in Christ as savior. I'm not a fundamentalist (i.e. I don't take the Bible 100% literally, though I do believe in it), but there's nothing wrong with people who are, save the crazy murderers.

I think it's interesting how people have different views on getting into heaven. Some believe that it's about being virtuous and selfless, people like Melon believe only those who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah (and live a good Christian life) will get into Heaven, and Roman Catholics believe that you can't commit any mortal sins in one's lifetime, and even after death, you have to go through purgatory to be clean enough to enter the pearly gates of Heaven.

Melon, Jac has a board devoted to religion and spirituality in the Insect Lounge, maybe you should check it out.

[Mary]

I think the problem with the preceding discussion about Christianity and Islam is that we are completely abstracting these religions from material conditions in the world, reifying them into some kind of pure, atemporal realm of thought. I don't think you can understand fundamentalist Muslims without understanding political and economic conditions in the Middle East and Africa and Pakistan, etc etc. It would be patently absurd to explain the Israel/Palestine conflict only by looking in the Koran, rather than looking at the political history of Israel as a country. This would be like explaining the conflict in Ireland through an examination of the doctrines of Protestantism and Catholicism. (and then proclaiming that Protestantism and Catholicism are dangerous, violent, terroristic religious sects) Obviously there is a religious component to the ongoing violence and terror in Ireland, but that's just a small piece of a much more complicated story. We are totally ignoring the political and economic conditions which make terrorism a convenient weapon of the weak—one doesn't need to engage in terrorism when one has the force of a giant national military at one's command.

Whenever anyone rehearses the long history of Christian violence in the Crusades and the Inquisition, they are told that these outbrusts of brutality have been relegated to Christianity's past, that modern Christianity has finally banished these blood-soaked demons. This perspective can only come from a blinkered world vision which only takes account of the modern West (and conveniently ignores Ireland, at that). Aside from the brutal intra-Christian violence in Ireland, violent crusaders in recent years fighting in the name of Christianity have slaughtered each other and members of other religions in the Philippines (2000, Associated Press: "At least 11 people were hacked to death as Christian sects waged a machete battle at a remote shrine in the Philippines, army officials said Friday"), Nigeria (from just 2 months ago on Reuters: "Militants from a predominantly Christian tribe killed at least 500 people in two attacks on a Muslim town in central Nigeria, a senior Red Cross official said Thursday"), India, Indonesia (2000, Foreign Affiars magazine: "70 Muslims who had surrendered at a school were murdered in cold blood by Christians wielding homemade guns and machetes. Christians later hunted down other Muslims, slashed their throats, and tossed their bodies into rivers. Others were strung up on homemade wire nooses"), etc etc.

None of this suggests that Christianity is a religion of hate or violence. What it suggests is that religion can be an additional catalyst for violence in conditions of political and economic deprivation or marginalization. We can't simply analyze a religion in the abstract realm of pure doctrine and texts - one can find support for depictng most religions as loving or hateful if one merely examines their holy documents - we have to look at how religions operate in this messy world of political conflicts, poverty, battles over sovereignty, contested land, etc etc. Without this material perspective, we are simply missing the real-world circumstances that often produce the most brutal and tragic "religious" violence.

M

[PC]

You make some excellent points, Mary. Have a cookie. ;D

[Rit]

hey. who's this Mary? how come she's making so much sense?

[Meursault]

To save a sinking ship.