CE - Volume 2

[JesusLooksLikeMe]

shane - Thought I'd better warn you mate... you're actually fantasising out loud.

[samplestiltskin]

LOL.

I never come here, cos up until a week or so ago I didn't give a shit about politics or current events Maybe I'll become a regular here. Seems pretty silly though, I mean, everybody wants to change each other's minds, right? And nobody wants to change their mind, right? Isn't it mostly either agreeing to disagree or getting pissed at each other for being stuubborn?

[rockysigman]

It's also about challening your own beliefs and trying to understand opposing viewpoints, which you can't do without expressing your own.

[Meursault]

Something like that samples.

So i was curious what scientific conclusions have been reached on homosexuality? I realise you can't generalise homosexuals as whole, but was wondering if anyone knew if it was generally nature, or nurture that brought about their gaydom.

[samplestiltskin]

Pity me, I spent 10 years in Kansas and have been conditioned to find the idea of people trying to understand opposing viewpoints impossible.

[samplestiltskin]

Shane, on the question of nature vs nurture, no matter what you're talking about, it's never one or the other. Always varying degrees of both.

[Meursault]

I realise that samples, but I was wondering what science has discovered whether it tends to be more often one or the other.

[rockysigman]

I know that it's been shown that a certain part of the brain is almost always larger in homosexuals than in heterosexuals, but I don't think that it has been proven that this is necessarily the cause of homosexuality. I think it is generally thought that certain genetic things make people predisposed to being more likely to be gay, but only when environmental situations trigger it. So yeah, a little bit of both I think.

[melon1]

I won't pretend for a second that I wholly understand the following passage from Paul. The first one from Moses, however, seems pretty clear. This is regarding the cause for homosexuality. Old Testament first:

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Then the Apostle Paul:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God or gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
"Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."


Can anyone give me their take on Paul's words(God's words through Paul IMO) besides,"The Bible was written by males only who wanted to legislate a state of mind for the purpose of controlling society by asserting condemnation to those who don't adhere to a system of rules," or something to that effect. Also, can anyone give any insight as to how these two passages correlate, if at all?

[stratman19]

Melon, I wish I could answer your questions, but I can't. I'm a non-religious conservative heathen.

I don't pretend to know anything about the Bible or it's authors. I respect your beliefs however. Hopefully someone else can help you out.

[melon1]

It's cool, stratman. I don't consider myself "religious" either. I see it as being spiritual. But I can totally understand that exposure to religiousity can cause a lack of interest in Him or give one a stern, distorted view of Him Who couldn't be more the opposite. Few people meet those on this earth who have found the narrow way. And those few who have found the "straight and narrow" are much more gentle and peacable than most would think. I myself used to think that the one closest to God was the one who was the most legalistic. But in the Bible, if you're still reading this, the Pharisees were the most legalistic and Jesus told them that the prostitutes were entering the kingdom before them.

[Matheus]

I'm going say a little something about the biblical verses Melon speaks of in terms of homosexuality considering I'm dude who likes other dudes.

The bible speaks of "lust" between two men as being sinful. Nowhere in there is there any talk of the love between two men. I would guess that any sexual desire is considered "lustful" whether it's for some random guy or if it stems out of love. At the same time, it feels completely natural for me to love my boyfriend, and through that love I'm going to engage in acts misconstrued, IMO, as "lustful" in the bible. Who can say what is natural to human beings who have the capacity to think, feel, and act in completely different ways from one another? Can "God" really even say such a thing when we are given such complicated emotions and situations to deal with on this earth? Even the notion of religion is completely complicated considering most of it is tacked down in a BOOKS that were written a long time ago. How are people supposed to take stock in books? Especially the bible (I don't know much about other religions), which obviously has contradictions with scientific fact or even basic common sense.

In my experience out with gay culture, I've seen something that sort of struck my eye. A good proportion of the men I met were driven by their lust for one another. I've talked to or hung out with drag queens, med, law, philosophy, and political science students, older men, etc. and many of them were driven by lust, not love. Where does it say in the bible that engaging in "unnatural acts" driven by love were sinful? I would think that engaging in sexual acts based on lust would be sinful, period, whether you're straight, gay, bisexual, or a priest. Lust and love are two very different things, IMO.

With all that said, I don't mean to question anyone's religion, but when that religion is questioning the validity of my capacity to be in love with another man then I am going to have something to say about it.

I've been with my boyfriend for over 5 months now, and things are going well. Who's to say that it's unnatural for two human beings to feel the most powerful and basic human emotion? And who the hell has the right to chalk my feelings and actions with my boyfriend up to lust? I know the difference, I'm not a moron.

[melon1]

Matheus,

I want to thank you for being honest. I will begin by saying that I do not believe you are a "moron", but I do believe you are deceived. Understand that I mean no hostility by saying that. I will not pretend for a minute that the desires you have are not an obstacle. OF COURSE they are, just as alcohol is an obstacle for some, sadomasochistic urges are for others, still others are given to urges for sex with children. Does the fact that an urge exists give it a legitimate and moral purpose?

I'm relieved that you brought the word love into the dialogue. Mainly because love is what life is all about. True love is eternal, it is perfect, it "never fails". "God is love." Love is the precise nature of God. So your question is what would God have against "love" of one man for another in a sexual way. And to that I respond by saying that it is the very nature of love to protect from evil. Our minds and our emotions are easily deceived because we are not "playing with a full deck" so to speak. What if all my emotions told me that I belonged with another man's wife, or my cousin? How would we condemn those things without some basis. That is why I believe The Bible is the basis. But anyway, would that be evidence that there's nothing wrong with it because it felt like love? To that you may say that being gay is different from both of those things. Well, if you have sex with your cousin, what do you get? A child with birth defects, deformity etc. And it is a widely shunned truth that AIDS began its rapid spread among the homosexual community. Am I saying we have AIDS in the world because of homosexuality? I think it's possible.

Now, let's make one thing clear. I am not what one would call homophobic and I do have a gay friend. But the way I see it is that if the parts don't fit, it simply can't be natural. "God's kindness leads us to repentance." But you might be thinking that I am quite unkind. Well, let me ask you a question: If a man is holding up a sign that says,"THE BRIDGE IS OUT" while you are driving on the highway, would you consider that man unkind if everyone around you appeared to be ignoring him? What would your opinion of the man be if you soon found out that he was right?

So in summing up I will add that I am NOT condemning you but rather offering myself to God as His arm outstretched to you.

[kats]

Dear Lord, please forgive Melon for he does not know the error of his ways.

And it is a widely shunned truth that AIDS began its rapid spread among the homosexual community. Am I saying we have AIDS in the world because of homosexuality? I think it's possible.


That is the biggest load of crap and quite possibly the most moronic of all statements to disregard homosexuality and to demonise it. The largest numbers of AIDS are in poor asian and african countries with heterosexual people, passed by poor hygiene conditions and unprotected sex. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever to conclusively prove that aids is in existence because of gay people.

Unless all of Africa turned gay and no-one realised it. Then Burma and other Asian countries. Africa, where it is presumed that AIDS originated, clearly started because gay people suddenly started cropping up in the villages and spread their gay disease to everyone else. Clearly. I bet the bubonic plague started to pay back those other terrible minorities.

What do you HONESTLY think reaching an outstretched hand to a gay person is going to do? They will still have their natural urges and the fact that you seem to equate it with child molestation is revolting.

When you watch a STRAIGHT person suffer from AIds or a child, maybe you'll understand. That these kids did NOTHING to deserve the most revolting and degrading thing to happen to a human being. Take a trip to Africa or Asia and get off the tour bus and go see the people dying slowly and then come back and tell us all its all because of homosexuality in a western world, that is only known to have reached these proportions in recent times, when homosexuality has been in societies for as long as civilisations have had records.

[kats]

From the United Nations Report on AIDS worldwide;

As of the end of 2003, an estimated 37.8 million people worldwide - 35.7 million adults and 2.1 million children younger than 15 years - were living with HIV/AIDS. Approximately two-thirds of these people (25.0 million) live in Sub-Saharan Africa; another 20 percent (7.4 million) live in Asia and the Pacific.(1)

Worldwide, approximately 11 of every 1000 adults aged 15 to 49 are HIV-infected. In Sub-Saharan Africa, about 7.5 percent of all adults in this age group are HIV-infected. Woman account for nearly half of all people worldwide living with HIV/AIDS. (1)

An estimated 4.8 million new HIV infections occurred worldwide during 2003; that is, about 14,000 infections each day. More than 95 percent of these new infections occurred in developing countries.(1)

In 2003, approximately 1,700 children under the age of 15 years, and 6,000 young people aged 15 to 24 years became infected with HIV every day.(1)

More than 20 million people with HIV/AIDS have died since the first AIDS cases were identified in 1981.(1)


In 2003 alone, HIV/AIDS-associated illnesses caused the deaths of approximately 2.9 million people worldwide, including an estimated 490,000 children younger than 15 years.(1)



Plus, AIDS deaths in the US are DECREASING, whilst acceptance of homosexuality is increasing. How do you explain that one?