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Post by Dr. Drum on Jul 12, 2004 8:06:24 GMT -5
But given that the Kennedy/Johnson years included tax cuts in 1964, you've got 2 in the "tax cut" column, 1 in the "raise taxes" column ... and a puzzle as to why the Kennedy/Johnson years go down as tax and spend equivilent to Clinton when they, like the Reagan years, included cuts. Ah, but are you sure you have two in the tax cut column? Because that was exactly my point, it’s not so cut and dried. For example, the Reagan years also included huge tax increases: www.dailyhowler.com/dh060804.shtmlwww.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0301.green.html |
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Post by Mary on Jul 12, 2004 8:48:38 GMT -5
Was it a criticism, or a mere statement? Mary sounds academic. I don't. Seems more like a well-stated well-backed up opinion to me than it does an insult on either side. rocdoc's original comparison: Chrisfan's logic is a thing I admire here, defending her points extremely well...easily the conservative version of la Blaney, tho without your authoritarian squinty-eyed academic's rhetorical grabbag....'and another thing'....oooh.
...that being said'...oooh.
If that's not a criticism, I have no idea what is. Is it just a well-stated well-back-up description of how I post to call me squinty-eyed and authoritarian? To put mocking "ooooh"s after phrases that I use in my posts?
To be honest, I'm not really sure how "and another thing" and "that being said" or so objectionable, but I have to assume this is a common case of electronic miscommunication where, because you can't include tone in type, sometimes a tone is attributed to you that you never intended. When I typed "And another thing" I had actually been about to hit post when it occurred to me that I wanted to add that paragraph, so it was basically just my own thought process on screen, like "oh, wait a minute, there's another thing too..." It came off instead as snarky and sarcastic, I didn't mean it that way.
M
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Post by JesusLooksLikeMe on Jul 12, 2004 9:08:37 GMT -5
your authoritarian squinty-eyed academic's rhetorical grabbag
Great phrase though, eh? Still makes me chuckle. I would honestly be chuffed and honoured to be insulted that poetically, and I hereby give rockdoc top marks for that one. Certainly beats "You suck Blaney!"
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Post by Dr. Drum on Jul 12, 2004 9:39:23 GMT -5
Don't encourage him.
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Post by shin on Jul 12, 2004 14:19:36 GMT -5
If there's one person who shouldn't have to apologize about being misunderstood, Mary, it's you. You've done nothing but be as cordial as possible to people as long as I've ever seen you post on any board, sometimes bending over backwards I'd even say, just to make sure you never get into it with anyone here, and sometimes it seems you have to spend as much of your post specifying your lack of hostility should such be perceived than actually making the point you're afraid would be misunderstood. To me, that accounts for something, so don't blame yourself for any electronic miscommunications.
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Post by RocDoc on Jul 12, 2004 14:20:57 GMT -5
...sorta rolls off of the tongue nice and easy tho, don't it? ~ Ooops. Sorry Mary. I went low. I did read that post of yours as me being wholly clueless about GWB's shortcomings...maaaybe coming from the perceived sarcasm I felt there...the whole attitude of my giving a blank check, the old carte blanche to ANYthing which has happened on GWB's watch....I haven't and I'm not. BUT, I'm still not going to buy into the Moore/shin screed of "behind- EVERY-maneuver-there's-been-a-horrible-acquisitive- self-involved-conspiracy"... the same FAR overly simplistic 'War-for-OIL' shriek( times 10), which I've seen SEVERAL(incl you, yes)from the 'other side' here say repeatedly, convinced apparently, that it was a non-issue...or a side-issue, along with the absurd 'You're the man who wanted ta shoot muh Paw, stranger....now DRAW!'... The so-called active, completely mindful participatory 'lying' and WILLFUL deceit of GWB which Moore/shin indulge themselves in as being so damning is total bullshit too. Colin Powell mouthed what he was told(backed by then-current intel) just as Dubya did. As kat said, it's your choice to believe or not what Moore's put out there, but I have little confidence that the 'youth vote' is going to be thinking critically with so many of their pop culti heroes doing the thinking FOR them....with Blink 191-2-3 and the likes of a Moby telling GWB to 'just suck their dicks', it's become a youth culture 'happening'. Can't feel left out y'know. Then who DIDN'T love to tell an authority figure to fuck off in their youth?('Youth'? Oh, I was all of 7 and a ½ in October of 1962 Dr D...it caused me to miss Huckleberry Hound for several nights...I was traumatized, believe me!  Is that terribly cynical? No, not particularly, I feel....I've been there(as part of that demographic) and that group hasn't seen the world change over even once let alone the shit that's happened over the near-fifty years I've been here. And hell YES that's a valid world-view and a valid way to discern how the ripples from 9 / 11 ARE different than anything else which has gone down the pike. And a bit different than even the MOST voracious History Major's appraisal of 'impact'. The world is plastic/dynamic with huuugely accelerated population growth in many regions...even the normal flux of population growth accounts for so much of the change in society we see...the ridiculous urban sprawl which was undreamt of in the sixties. Technology, mobility due to the automobile, microprocessors...all these things have changed how life is lived in all developed countries since say Dec 7th 1941. FAR more interdigitation of peoples and cultures simply through DENSITY and mass...creates environments where one person, one relatively small organization, a terror 'cell', can wage independent madness within this greatly increased mass, with far greater destructive impact. I'll venture that having seen the 'wide open spaces' and now seeing a 10 mile diameter wide city become essentially a 50 diameter wide city of near-identical density forces me to perhaps see threats such as the proposed Election Week Al Q'aeda 'blockbuster' as being perhaps more 'real' than the rest of you? How should I view that same thing having happened in Madrid and the frank symbolism of its consequences there? ...anyway, it seems that the draw for America's youth to simply ape these largely sheltered heroes of theirs is going to be irresistable. Having seen Boy Sets Fire at Warped last year, rallying their segment against Bush in betw songs....the power of an Adolf-like platform IS something. And the kids sure seem to eat it up because their stars shower approval on them with every mimicked epithet. ...and kat, me and Clicker ranting against liberals, identically? I mean, I love Click....but I am completely convinced that we don't share anywhere near exactly the same approach....tho this, I guess, is where shin's deeeeeep statement that 'Hey, this is how people see you and oooh, they may be right'. ..the same as Click's strings of one-liner rants, eh? Nuh. No fucking way. But the rest? Taken in the spirit in which it was offered, thanks kat... |
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Post by RocDoc on Jul 12, 2004 14:50:48 GMT -5
Quick! Call the Vatican!
Shin's sainted Mary B!!
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Post by shin on Jul 12, 2004 15:14:41 GMT -5
"Moore/shin"? Twice, no less. Word to the wise: At best, Moore merely makes me think, which I do already. At worst, he's a lying fraud. I'm leaning more toward "at worst". Again, thanks for making a completely baseless comparison, especially since I've rarely had nice things to say about Moore with the one exception that I happen to agree with BFC's main point. Clearly it comforts you to see us the same way, in the same light. You know, that deeeeep statement which can serve you so well when you need it to, but gosh, don't point it in my direction! Only you get to make character judgments, clearly. You were asked before to name one thing you have an issue with that the Bushies have done. You haven't specified one, just a blanket statement of "oh how dare you suggest I've never criticized, how dare you!" This exact same scenario happened last year concerning the Israeli/Palestine conflict. Same thing dynamically. So try it for once. Tell us what the Bushies have done bad, go ahead. Here, let me help you out, here's one thing they've done bad: attempting to acquire political gain out of the possible capture of OBL or his cohorts: www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040719&s=aaj071904Agree? Feh! Conspiracy theories! Baseless! Lying, willful deceit! Willful! Bah! |
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Post by shin on Jul 12, 2004 15:17:19 GMT -5
'Tis a shame that paying attention to the actual news (instead of merely signing on to whatever hack editorial is making the rounds at the Corner) has been equated with wearing a tin foil hat. Though I must admit, it's warmer with your head in the sand than in foil.
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Post by RocDoc on Jul 12, 2004 16:43:59 GMT -5
...so the Pakistanis shouldn't go after any HVTs til the election's over?
To avoid all appearance of ANY sort of collateral political gain...lay down, let OBL peacefully put his November Election Day detonations together without any outside stress or drain on his fragile emotions by way of a Pakistani military who ALREADY know that:
"In Pakistan, there has been a folk belief that, whenever there's a Republican administration in office, relations with Pakistan have been very good," says Khalid Hasan, a U.S. correspondent for the Lahore-based Daily Times. By contrast, there's also a "folk belief that the Democrats are always pro-India."
...and does that folk belief vest them even a little bit in such a project's completion?
Aaah, so they've ALSO got motivation of their OWN to complete this.
Well....
~
I mean, throw me this sort of vagueness of 'attempting to acquire political gain out of the possible capture of OBL or his cohorts' ALONG with the further circumstantial information which that article gives...and you'd STILL expect me to say 'Yeah, cut, dried and sealed EVIL, shin...I'm over to your side now. CONvinced. Where's my Kerry button?'
Oh wait....NOW you're convinced that you've led me right the conclusion you'd wished...that I can't even pillory GWB for such a so-so-sooooooo OBVIOUS offense...
~
As a real and true fuck-up of GWB's and(I'll guess)to humor you because EVERYONE on the other side seems to have missed when I have said it....the fucker HAD to have come out of his 'go it alone' near-obsession when(and IF)someone had come out and told him that the villages on the march northward from Basra absolutely needed to be protected after they came in and rooted out Republican Guard and their sympathizers, WITH info from the true patriot villagers....from what I've read, capturing only partial populations of those self-interested pieces of Sodom's shit...and then leaving on the Baghdad march, which caused massacres as Sodom's men emerged from their rat holes ready for revenge....and consequently MUCH of the bad feeling among formerly VERY welcoming natives...
BUT the military and GWB did expect massive resistance as they came closer to Baghdad and so felt they needed more cohesion. But...they truly fucked up the 'hearts and minds' part that way...
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Post by Meursault on Jul 12, 2004 18:36:20 GMT -5
Vote Shane Simpson, next American President.
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Post by stratman19 on Jul 12, 2004 18:44:15 GMT -5
We're doomed.
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Post by shin on Jul 12, 2004 18:53:44 GMT -5
So to read that Bushco is trying to make political hay out of the capture of a man that was behind the killing of 3,000 Americans, that instead of putting this sort of pressure on Musharraf and Friends two years ago, they waited until it was damaging to Kerry to do so, not one moment of hesitation enters your brain?
"Mr. Bush, we have a HVT right now, do you want us to hand him ov-"
"No, Mr. Musharraf, let's wait until the last few days of July. You know, elections being more important than justice and all. And hey, if that doesn't help me, we can always postpone the election, what with the new laws we're trying to implement!"
You're saying well, gee, this can be excused? And yet you read into it that my criticism is that I don't think OBL should be captured at ALL, instead of, well, we should have gotten him BEFORE? That if such an action, the capturing of a HVT, is the sort of event you can plan to the DAY, well, why not July 29th...2002?
So, this stuff just doesn't make you want to rethink all the excuses and apologies and proclamations of honorable intentions and your defense of all the "unnecessary tarring" by the Shin/Moore Unholy Alliance of Evil?
So you're saying the bile doesn't reach the back of your throat to read this?
Touché, then.
This public pressure would be appropriate, even laudable, had it not been accompanied by an unseemly private insistence that the Pakistanis deliver these high-value targets (HVTs) before Americans go to the polls in November.
(bold emphasis theirs)
What's worse is that their payment from this is that we can excuse them from Atomic Father Khan's transgressions. Sure, he sold nuclear secrets on the black market, but we can turn the other cheek. Kerry, oh, but Kerry would have an icier approach to them, maybe hold them accountable and side with the Worlds largest democracy, India. Musharraf obviously doesn't want that. He also wants shiny new F-16s!
Appeasement it is then, eh? Yes, you'd love that.
Yet should the mushroom cloud envelope the FleetCenter, we'll think it's one of Saddam's never-existing nuclear weapons. Thus our misinformation has been justified at last! Justified at last...
.
Criticism of the handling of the Ba'ath regime roundup is a good start, dare I put it in such terms. But to then levy that claim as proof of your lack of bias leaks in the screws when you then excuse such blatant powerwhoring.
Sure, such outlandish predictions of the TNR article may never happen. Bushco may have requested such a capture, and Pakistan may be more than willing to oblige...but that doesn't mean you can bank on such a capture with such impeccable political timing. Bad luck has a way of showing up, not to mention the articles claims that such a massive offensive might inadvertently start a tribal war.
But...but....
When you hear these words:
"We interrupt coverage of John Kerry's acceptance speech to bring you LIVE coverage of Osama bin Laden's capture!"
...well maybe you'll remember this post. Maybe you'll remember the TNR article. Maybe when you hear of responses from the Shin/Moore UAoE claiming cynical politicizing as a motive, you won't be quick to jump on your anti-American-Bush-tarring-idiots! high horse.
Maybe you'll take a deep breath and start questioning...
Maybe.
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Post by kats on Jul 12, 2004 20:52:21 GMT -5
...and kat, me and Clicker ranting against liberals, identically? I mean, I love Click....but I am completely convinced that we don't share anywhere near exactly the same approach....tho this, I guess, is where shin's deeeeeep statement that 'Hey, this is how people see you and oooh, they may be right'.
..the same as Click's strings of one-liner rants, eh? Nuh. No fucking way.
But the rest? Taken in the spirit in which it was offered, thanks kat... That's cool. Well, not so much that you guys have the same approach. Click was definitely much more inflammatory towards me  Though, you appeared to have coined a new phrase..'one liner rant'- only Clicker could be capable of that! Don't even start me on blink 182. My almost-seventeen year old brother is seeing three of their concerts. He CRIED when they cancelled their tour...luckily for his tear ducts, dates were reset. Read their lyrics though, anyone who takes any political statement they have to make seriously can't be too intelligent anyway. "tear from eyes worn cold and sad" That's it. Throw away Joyce, cast off the shackles of Pound...we have a winner. I get what your concerns about Moore might be..I don't see it from an American viewpoint. Everyone over here is fairly critical of America/administration...so Moore scores big points over here. Particularly with the youth. But if it wasn't him, it would be someone else. People like this always come along, and its up to personally choice eventually whether or not you chose to be won over by them. God forbid Ann-whatshername impacted on teens. But you've hit the head on the nail, youth icons are about rebellion and what not. Blink 182 are about as rebellious as wearing socks and sandals. Though, I have to ashamedly admit that when I was twelve and thirteen I used to listen to Dammit in my room, crying about the injustice of the world blubbering to the line, 'well, I guess this is growing up!' Luckily, the following year, an Aussie band penned the song 'Prisoner of Society', "well, we don't need no-one to tell us what to do"...and despite the apparent grammatical flaws it captured the mosher within and I moved on to much more angrier things. Korn, Slipknot, Rage Against the Machine.Then I developed taste. Thank God. That's why you should all be glad that you weren't teenagers in the late nineties.
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Post by kats on Jul 12, 2004 20:56:24 GMT -5
anyway, it seems that the draw for America's youth to simply ape these largely sheltered heroes of theirs is going to be irresistable. Having seen Boy Sets Fire at Warped last year, rallying their segment against Bush in betw songs....the power of an Adolf-like platform IS something. And the kids sure seem to eat it up because their stars shower approval on them with every mimicked epithet.
Yes, but nothing new. Reminds me of Jim Morrison (bless) and his rants taking the piss out of the audience...only to be mimicked almost word for word by Maynard James Keenan and his travelling 'This is Spinal Tap'esque wannabes. Music will always be a great medium to show political opinions and I don't see why it shoudln't be used in such a manner. That being said, I don't know if anyone stupid enough to go to an MXPX or whatever concert si really going to be informed enough to make their own opinion Did I just say that on Rollingstone? I think JLLM's head might have exploded...praising Morrison and bagging Maynard. Truly sorry.
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Though, you appeared to have coined a new phrase..'one liner rant'- only Clicker could be capable of that!