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Post by chrisfan on Aug 27, 2004 9:05:11 GMT -5
I guess I can see the desire to change the policies and platform of the party. I guess what I don't understand is why pro-choice people protest the Democratic convention, or why pro-life people protest the Republican convention, etc. Or, as Strat mentioned, the groups who will show up to protest ANY major event. I guess I'd have to revise what i said and say that I undertand why SOME of the protestors are there. But when you get into groups whose primary concern is being allowed to protest (The Black Tea Society at the Dem convention comes to mind) without having a MESSAGE, that makes no sense to me.
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Post by Galactus on Aug 27, 2004 9:06:45 GMT -5
"I think Senator Kerry should be proud of his record," Bush said. "No, I don't think he lied."
Fanatstic, now that's settled we can moveon.
Protesters are there for different reasons, I think honestly the main reason is they want to be heard and don't know any other way to do. The larger, more established group go there in hopes of shaking things up abit and sure, there are those who just feel "cool" protesting something...
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Post by Galactus on Aug 27, 2004 9:08:12 GMT -5
The greastest thing is when you see people protesting protesters.
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Post by Proud on Aug 27, 2004 9:09:53 GMT -5
"Fanatstic, now that's settled we can moveon."
i don't know 'bout that one, yooogi. he sure took his sweet time to say that... i wouldn't be surprised if he decided to wait until it did enough damage and then let it go, especially after a certain lawyer got in trouble...
that's my bush! knows what the public wants to hear. sometimes.
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Post by chrisfan on Aug 27, 2004 9:11:34 GMT -5
Protesters are there for different reasons, I think honestly the main reason is they want to be heard and don't know any other way to do. The larger, more established group go there in hopes of shaking things up abit and sure, there are those who just feel "cool" protesting something... Okay, so let me ask you this ... if their objective is to be heard, then is gathering to protest during a week that we alreayd know what the primary news topic (the speeches at the convention) will be? Wouldnt' they have a better chance of BEING HEARD if they were to say, gather on the mall in DC a couple of weeks before or after when they could have a better chance of being a top news story? |
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Post by Galactus on Aug 27, 2004 9:13:19 GMT -5
That's exactly what I believe Proud, but there are more important things to talk about. We can't get stuck on things like this, not when we've got a war and a deabatable economy.
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Post by stratman19 on Aug 27, 2004 9:13:37 GMT -5
This is coming out of nowhere, but thought I'd share it anyway. The next time you guys think that organized labor is a monolith, and that the membership walks in lockstep with the leadership like a bunch of sheep, consider this (re: my own union, the International Association of Firefighters).
Our International president, Harold Schaitberger, as some of you may know, came out and endorsed Kerry many months ago. He led people to believe that he had the weight of the membership behind him. That is simply not true.
Schaitberger himself has said that 87% of our union is moderately conservative to conservative. 44% are registered Republicans, 29% are registered Democrats. This doesn't count states like Texas or my own of Michigan where we don't declare a party when we register to vote.
There has been a huge disconnect between our rank and file, and our leadership. I know most of my own local is voting for Bush. The only people that endorsed Kerry (under the umbrella of our union) seems to be our national leadership and local union presidents with an agenda. Needless to say, there are a lot of pissed off firefighters in the IAFF.
Just thought I'd share that as most people think of labor unions and their membership as automatically in the liberal camp. While I certainly can't speak for other unions, I do know a little something about mine.
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Post by Galactus on Aug 27, 2004 9:15:57 GMT -5
I'm going to have to pull one your tricks here chrisfan....I can't and won't pretend to know whats in the minds of the protesters. I'm sure that they have their reasons and if they let me know I'll post it here.
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Post by chrisfan on Aug 27, 2004 9:17:34 GMT -5
I don't know why I'm even commenting, but I am ...
If Bush commenting on Kerry's war record, and saying that he doesn't think he's lied about it "settles" the swift boat controversy so that we can move on, then I think we're in a pretty damn scary place. The president speaks, that's the final word, and nothing more needs to be said on the topic? That's REALLY the kind of world you want to live in?
On the issue of the lawyers -- It is a fact that it is NOT against the law for an attorney to do work both for a campaign AND a 527. The reason being is that lawyers are forbidden by the ethics they must adhere to from discussing work for one client with another client. Therefore, an attorney having two clients who can't work together is not an illegal link. Ben Ginsberg resigned not because what he was doing is wrong or illegal, but because it would cause trouble for his clients to give the APPEARANCE of a connection. Certainly understandable. So let me ask you DED and Proud -- are you equally concerned wit the attorneys who are working for BOTH Kerry and MoveOn? If you are truly concerned with the possible illegal connections between campaigns and 527s, are you concerned with the co-chair of the Democratic convention running a pro-Kerry 527 himself? Are you concerned that John Kerry and his wife have attended MoveOn events? Or are you comfortable in your hypocrisy?
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Post by chrisfan on Aug 27, 2004 9:18:11 GMT -5
That's exactly what I believe Proud, but there are more important things to talk about. We can't get stuck on things like this, not when we've got a war and a deabatable economy. Yet, you keep on bringing it up.  |
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 27, 2004 9:19:47 GMT -5
The greastest thing is when you see people protesting protesters. This is something I regularly do at poetry readings and various "protest gatherings" in my area. Oh yeah you'd be proud of me.  * thoRny protesting the protestors?! *GasP** |
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Post by Proud on Aug 27, 2004 9:19:56 GMT -5
That's exactly what I believe Proud, but there are more important things to talk about. We can't get stuck on things like this, not when we've got a war and a deabatable economy. hmm... i agree. if the campaigns will let us move past this one, then i'm willing to move on... as far as pointless protesters go, i'll use a comment one of my teachers came up with (though it's a couple words off, i'm sure) about those who vote for republican presidents... "i recognize the people's right to organize, even if they want to be stupid." |
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Post by chrisfan on Aug 27, 2004 9:20:21 GMT -5
This is coming out of nowhere, but thought I'd share it anyway. The next time you guys think that organized labor is a monolith, and that the membership walks in lockstep with the leadership like a bunch of sheep, consider this (re: my own union, the International Association of Firefighters). Our International president, Harold Schaitberger, as some of you may know, came out and endorsed Kerry many months ago. He led people to believe that he had the weight of the membership behind him. That is simply not true. Schaitberger himself has said that 87% of our union is moderately conservative to conservative. 44% are registered Republicans, 29% are registered Democrats. This doesn't count states like Texas or my own of Michigan where we don't declare a party when we register to vote. There has been a huge disconnect between our rank and file, and our leadership. I know most of my own local is voting for Bush. The only people that endorsed Kerry (under the umbrella of our union) seems to be our national leadership and local union presidents with an agenda. Needless to say, there are a lot of pissed off firefighters in the IAFF. Just thought I'd share that as most people think of labor unions and their membership as automatically in the liberal camp. While I certainly can't speak for other unions, I do know a little something about mine. Strat -- how do you feel about your dues going to pay people who are taking actions that appear to not represent the majority of members in the union? |
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Post by Proud on Aug 27, 2004 9:23:08 GMT -5
i oughtta shake mr. harold's hand.
"So let me ask you DED and Proud -- are you equally concerned wit the attorneys who are working for BOTH Kerry and MoveOn? If you are truly concerned with the possible illegal connections between campaigns and 527s, are you concerned with the co-chair of the Democratic convention running a pro-Kerry 527 himself? Are you concerned that John Kerry and his wife have attended MoveOn events? Or are you comfortable in your hypocrisy?"
i'm comfortable as hell, mainly because: a) it was bush's side going after kerry's war record, and not vice versa. indeed kerry said a comment about it awhile back, but it never really was publicized. and b) i'm willing to pull the "pot calling the kettle black" routine. when people play dirty, guess what? you play dirty too. maybe that's immoral, but at this point, i don't give a shit. sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
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Post by Galactus on Aug 27, 2004 9:25:40 GMT -5
My hypocrisy? Let's back that train up alittle bit. If you beleive for one second that Kerry, moveon and the democratic convention are the only ones who are invovled in in shady deals you're just not paying attention, I don't believe for one second you're that nieve. I believe you asked this more for the reaction then the answer, but here's your answer anyway...You pick your battles. You can't fight everything. I belive both sides are invovled in plenty of shady playground polotics. So unless we can stop them both or prove that one is actually doing sopmething illeagal, and we can't, it's time to let it go and move on. We all have our little bouts of hypocrisy dear, even you.
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