CE8

[chrisfan]

kMc said:

Pissin, shut the fuck up. There's only one way to think about this. Chrisfan has already illustrated this. You don't have the values to see this clearly.

Kenny, criticize what I actually said, not what you'd like to pretend that I said. If you can come up with a reason to defend what I believe was the heartless act of Michael Schiavo banning Terri's parents and siblings from her deathbed, I'm more than open to hear it. But what you were doing was criticizing your made up reasons for what i said. It's a waste of time to criticize something that does not exsist. THAT is what i said to shut the fuck up from. You want to defend the bastard, I'd love to hear it.

[chrisfan]

Hating the "Religious Right"
Should people of faith also be allowed a say in the law-making process?
by Hugh Hewitt

THE TERRI SCHIAVO TRAGEDY has been seized on by long-time critics of the "religious right" to launch attack after attack on the legitimacy of political action on the basis of religious belief. This attack has ignored the inconvenient participation in the debate--on the side of resuming water and nutrition for Terri Schiavo--of the spectacularly not-the-religious-rightness of Tom Harkin, Nat Hentoff, Jesse Jackson, and a coalition of disability advocacy groups.

The attack has also been hysterical. After Congress acted--ineffectively, it turned out--Maureen Dowd proclaimed that "theocracy" had arrived in the land. Paul Krugman warned that assassination of liberals by extremists was not far off. And the Internet frenzy on the left was even more extreme.

Into the fray came former Missouri Republican Senator John Danforth, an ordained priest, and much admired man of integrity. In yesterday's New York Times, Senator Danforth blasted the control that he asserts is now held over the Republican party by religious conservatives. Danforth specifically criticized the congressional action on behalf of Schiavo, a proposed Missouri bill that would halt stem cell research, and concerns over gay marriage.

All of these charges--from the most incoherent to the most measured--arrive without definition as to what "the religious right" is, and without argument as to why the agenda of this ill-defined group is less legitimate than the pro-gay marriage, pro-cloning, pro-partial-birth abortion, pro-euthanasia agenda of other political actors. Danforth's position is, apparently, that the agenda of the left on these matters ought not to be resisted, which means that it will be enacted. "For politicians to advance the cause of one religious group," Danforth intones, "is often to oppose the cause of another." That is inescapably true. To come to the defense of the unborn, as Senator Danforth correctly notes he always did during his legislative career, is to oppose abortion on demand. To come to the aid of the Christians in Sudan is to oppose the wishes of the Muslims who sought their destruction. Every political conflict is a choice between competing moral codes.

So Danforth's essay is really a poorly-camouflaged complaint that his positions on stem-cell research, gay marriage, and Terri Schiavo are not the positions of the Republican party. It is fair for him to try and persuade people to endorse his positions but it is wrong and demagogic to attempt to question the right of people of faith to participate in politics. That is certainly what Dowd, Krugman, and others want to accomplish, and although Danforth asserts that "I do not fault religious people for political action," the intention of his essay is to encourage the Republican party to reject the efforts of religious people to influence the party's agenda.

There is little chance that George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, Bill Frist or Dennis Hastert are going to heed Danforth's advice. But a strain of thought is developing that the political objectives of people of faith have second-class status when compared to those of, say, religiously secular elites. Of course, not only would such a position have surprised all of the Founding Fathers, it would have shocked Lincoln and Reagan, too.


The speed with which issues that excite the passions of people of faith have arrived at the center of American politics is not surprising given the forced march that the courts have put those issues on. It was not the "religious right" that pushed gay marriage to the center of the public debate; it was courts in Hawaii, Vermont, and Massachusetts. It wasn't the "religious right" that ordered Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removed; it was a Florida Supreme Court that struck down a law passed by the Florida legislature and signed by Governor Jeb Bush which would have allowed Terri Schiavo to live. And it isn't the "religious right" that forced the United States Supreme Court to repeatedly issue rulings on areas of law that would have been better left to legislatures.

These and other developments have indeed mobilized new activists across the country, many of who see a vast disparity between what they believe ought to be public policy and what is becoming that policy by judicial fiat. They have every right to participate in politics, and they can be expected to refuse to support elected officials who ignore their concerns.

Attempts to silence them, marginalize them, or to encourage others to do so are not arguments against their positions, but admissions that those positions represent majorities that cannot be refused a place at the law-making table.

[ken]

kMc said:

No, I disagree with you both. If I were Michael Schiavo and I were telling the truth and, therefore, from my perspective, working for justice against parents who did not have Terri's best interest at heart, who drew the attention of a media circus, and who invited every asshole with a suit or a Bible or an internet connection to make judgments on me based on hearsay, I might not allow her parents into that room prior to her death, particularly if I wanted to spend those moments with her. But of course, that is working off the assumption that Michael Schiavo was telling the truth, and there really is no way of knowing either way.

To quote myself, out of understandable resentment, I might not allow her parents in that room during her final hours. Of course, that only makes it understandable if he was telling the truth from the get-go, which is contentious but ultimately unknowable. But because I don't know his reasoning, I can't call him a bastard. If you're ok with that, good for you. Those are some kickass values.

[stratman19]

Well congratulations, death merchants. Your side has been on quite a roll. Cheer on Liberals. Your decades old campaign to de-value human life has been a smashing success. You must be very proud. 40 million abortions, and counting; Terri Schiavo (the most recent). What living human being do we get to starve to death next? Rolling right on down that ol' slippery slope of euthanasia...

Who's next on your hit list, death merchants? The elderly? The infirm? The mentally retarded? What burden to society is next?

Can I make a suggestion? Given the looming crisis of Social Security/Medicare, I vote for murdering the elderly next. You know, that pesky ol' baby boom generation. Hey, I'm a part of it, so feel free to take me out too. I don't play favorites. After we've unburdened Social Security/Medicare, there'll be plenty of time to murder the rest. After all, human life is no more valuable than a pile of dog shit, is it death merchants?

I'm sick of your culture of death, I'm sick of your moral relativism. I still believe in a right and a wrong. Obviously, you (Left) do not.

Terri Schiavo deserved to live. There was enough questions around her situation to demand it. A query...why didn't Michael Schiavo just relinquish guardianship? He could've moved on with his life, and Terri's parents could've cared for her. Who would have lost under this scenario? And by not even allowing her family to be there for her final moments...unforgivable. Michael Schiavo is a fucking bastard.

This country is truly fucked up when it takes a parent's/guardian's permission for a minor to get her ears pierced, yet that same minor can take a life (abortion) without even her parent's knowledge, let alone their counsel. Talk about a fucked up set of priorities...

Congratulations, death merchants. Kudos to the Left. Your side seems to be winning the culture war.

I admit this isn't a rational post, it's an emotional one. I made my feelings on this case clear many pages ago on this board. And I've been following it for a long time too, not just since the latest media circus, btw.

I also realize some of this post may be unfair, I'm just really pissed off right now. Attack me at your leisure. I'll respond when I can...well except for Shin. I don't respond to him on anything.

Sometimes, you people really piss me off. Sometimes I wonder if it's even worth it. Why do I invest money, time, and effort to advance my philosophy...I feel like I'm on a sinking ship. I'll continue to fight the good fight, even as I think I'll probably lose in the end. I just hope I'm taking a dirt nap when the Left finally wins...

Goddamned death merchants.

R.I.P Terri Schiavo.

[chrisfan]

kMc said:

If I were Michael Schiavo and I were telling the truth and, therefore, from my perspective, working for justice against parents who did not have Terri's best interest at heart, who drew the attention of a media circus, and who invited every asshole with a suit or a Bible or an internet connection to make judgments on me based on hearsay ...

Mainstream media unreported conflicts of interest in Schiavo tragedy
by Judi McLeod, Editor,
Thursday, March 31, 2005

Every time a rock is lifted in the Terri Schiavo tragedy, another conflict of interest comes slithering out.

The conflict-of-interest potential in the right-to-die connections among current figures involved in the case are only outdone by the Woodside Hospice board of director’s conflict of interest reality.

There’s the death-is-beautiful, right-to-die activist Michael Schiavo attorney George Felos.

Don’t make eye contact with Felos, who claims he can ascertain a person’s desire to die by "looking into their eyes" and letting their spirits speak directly to him.

A jumped-up volunteer at Woodside Hospice, Felos became chairman of the Hospice of the Florida Suncoast, which runs Woodside, and only came off the board about a year after Michael Schiavo placed his estranged wife there.

Then there’s Dr. Ronald Cranford, handpicked by Michael Schiavo to examine Terri and on whose say-so Terri was categorized in "persistent vegetative state". Cranford is the MD who officially ordered Terri’s feeding tube removed on March 18. A neurologist, Cranford testifies in cases such as Terri’s around the country, always pumping the dehydration and starvation side. He was 1992’s featured speaker for the pro-euthanasia Hemlock Society, which was renamed The Choice in Dying Society. (WorldNetDaily).

Cranford nicknamed himself, "Dr. Humane Death".

A bioethicist, and a pioneer in euthanasia and right-to-die issues, Dr. Humane Death is a fully-fledged member of The Choice in Dying Society.

At least Cranford is not a board member of the Hospice of the Florida Suncoast.

Mary Labyak, CEO of Woodside Hospice has direct ties to the Euthanasia Society of America and Hemlock for Hospice, described by Hyscience.com as "an organization that seeks to accelerate the dying process."

Everett Rice, former Pinellas County Sheriff (1988-204) endorsed Judge George Greer for reelection in campaign ads. Rice, a former board member for the Hospice of the Florida Suncoast, hired Michael Schiavo while Schiavo’s guardianship proceedings were being heard in the courtroom of his longtime friend, Judge George Greer.

Senator Jim King, who originally upheld the passage of "Terri’s Law", was a board member of Woodside.

Then there’s Gus Michael Bilirikis, Florida State representative 1998-2000 and between 2001-2003, who was on the Hospice of the Florida Suncoast board of directors.

As a county commissioner, Judge Greer was a working colleague of Barbara Sheen Todd (county commissioner) for eight consecutive years. Sheen Todd is also on the board of the hospice where Terri lingers.

Judge Greer’s fellow judge, Judge John Lenderman is the brother of Martha Lenderman, on the same board.

The mainline media has not reported on the myriad conflicts of interest connected to the Terri Schiavo tragedy, although any one interested can read about them on the Internet.

-----------------------

The webs are tightly wound on both sides ...

[chrisfan]

kMc said:

To quote myself, out of understandable resentment, I might not allow her parents in that room during her final hours. Of course, that only makes it understandable if he was telling the truth from the get-go, which is contentious but ultimately unknowable. But because I don't know his reasoning, I can't call him a bastard. If you're ok with that, good for you. Those are some kickass values.

I will never find it an insult to be defined as being on the side of love, repsect, and forgiveness.

[chrisfan]

stratman19 said:

Well congratulations, death merchants. Your side has been on quite a roll. Cheer on Liberals. Your decades old campaign to de-value human life has been a smashing success. You must be very proud. 40 million abortions, and counting; Terri Schiavo (the most recent). What living human being do we get to starve to death next? Rolling right on down that ol' slippery slope of euthanasia...

Who's next on your hit list, death merchants? The elderly? The infirm? The mentally retarded? What burden to society is next?

Can I make a suggestion? Given the looming crisis of Social Security/Medicare, I vote for murdering the elderly next. You know, that pesky ol' baby boom generation. Hey, I'm a part of it, so feel free to take me out too. I don't play favorites. After we've unburdened Social Security/Medicare, there'll be plenty of time to murder the rest. After all, human life is no more valuable than a pile of dog shit, is it death merchants?

I'm sick of your culture of death, I'm sick of your moral relativism. I still believe in a right and a wrong. Obviously, you (Left) do not.

Terri Schiavo deserved to live. There was enough questions around her situation to demand it. A query...why didn't Michael Schiavo just relinquish guardianship? He could've moved on with his life, and Terri's parents could've cared for her. Who would have lost under this scenario? And by not even allowing her family to be there for her final moments...unforgivable. Michael Schiavo is a fucking bastard.

This country is truly fucked up when it takes a parent's/guardian's permission for a minor to get her ears pierced, yet that same minor can take a life (abortion) without even her parent's knowledge, let alone their counsel. Talk about a fucked up set of priorities...

Congratulations, death merchants. Kudos to the Left. Your side seems to be winning the culture war.

I admit this isn't a rational post, it's an emotional one. I made my feelings on this case clear many pages ago on this board. And I've been following it for a long time too, not just since the latest media circus, btw.

I also realize some of this post may be unfair, I'm just really pissed off right now. Attack me at your leisure. I'll respond when I can...well except for Shin. I don't respond to him on anything.

Sometimes, you people really piss me off. Sometimes I wonder if it's even worth it. Why do I invest money, time, and effort to advance my philosophy...I feel like I'm on a sinking ship. I'll continue to fight the good fight, even as I think I'll probably lose in the end. I just hope I'm taking a dirt nap when the Left finally wins...

Goddamned death merchants.

R.I.P Terri Schiavo.

Nicely said. The only think I'd take issue with is the use of "left" and "right" in your comments. There ARE some on the left who do see the need to stand up for life in this issue. And there are those on the right who are more than comfortable looking away from this, just as long as their taxes are kept low.

[pissin2]

I aint left or right

[Ampage]

Well said Strat.

[pissin2]

I don't understand how people could be so sad or angry about this. I was more upset when she was alive. Seriously. It saddened me just to look at her living like that. It just wasn't right. She's in a better place now.

[chrisfan]

Pissin2 said:

I don't understand how people could be so sad or angry about this. I was more upset when she was alive. Seriously. It saddened me just to look at her living like that. It just wasn't right. She's in a better place now.

She is in a better place now. But Laci Peterson is also in a better place now. That does not mean that it wasn't right to be angry or upset about how she got there either.

[pissin2]

You're right. I'm upset that it took her 15 years to get there.

[Thorngrub]

A few things.

DED -- Forget what I was tryin' to say. Cuz I don't even know . . . just blathering

I sat glued to the TV set last night, switching through the various channels, watching as the Schiavo predicament's final stages unfolded.

--I can't STAND Bill O'Reilly

--That Female Reporter with the last name Grace: CANT' STAND HER. Why does her expression have to constantly resemble that of someone smelling shit? (Of course I know the answer -- it's just ANNOYING)

--Ms. Grace and Bill O'Reilly should do a porno together, IMO

--I listened to Mel Gibson passionately defend Terri's right to live. I like Mel Gibson. His words were very compelling.

Bottom Line: By the end of the night, I felt quite literally brainwashed by all these self righteous pro-right-to-not-die-at-any-cost people standing up in "defense" of Terri Schiavo. Today I'm surprised I have any heartstrings left -- what with all them folks pullin on em -- it's like a freakin Tug O' War on the heartstrings.

I found it quite difficult NOT to sympathize with Mel Gibson and every other crusader for Terri's "right to life".

It's been trying just to keep this whole spectacle in proper perspective. So trying I find it hard to figure out what the proper perspective is anymore.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Yet now that the dust is beginning to think of settling . . . I am back to the realization that this Schiavo Incident is all about CHOICE: that of the Individual (Defended by the Left) vs. that of the State/God/Preacher/Jesus/etc (Defended by the Right).

And by God I will stand by the Defenders of the Individual's CHOICE -- and all those heartstrings mercilessly yanked out by the roots by the likes of O'Reilly, Hannity, Grace, and Gibson will just have to grow back.

This has been an RS.PublicServiceAnnouncement brought to you by the thoRny one.

[chrisfan]

ThoRnyGueRo said:

Yet now that the dust is beginning to think of settling . . . I am back to the realization that this Schiavo Incident is all about CHOICE: that of the Individual (Defended by the Left) vs. that of the State/God/Preacher/Jesus/etc (Defended by the Right).

And by God I will stand by the Defenders of the Individual's CHOICE -- and all those heartstrings mercilessly yanked out by the roots by the likes of O'Reilly, Hannity, Grace, and Gibson will just have to grow back.

This has been an RS.PublicServiceAnnouncement brought to you by the thoRny one.

In the first part of this post, as you were expressing your disdain for O'Reilly and Nancy "botox barrister babe" Grace, I totally agreed with you. But I REALLY have to take issue with this portion of your comments.

First off, as I said to Stratman, I think it is incorrect to label anything about this debate as being left vs right. There are plenty of people on the left who were on the side of reconnecting the feeding tube. There are also plenty of people on the right who supported its removal. Those on the left can try all they want to get rid of him, but we on the right are NOT taking Jesse Jackson off your hands.

That detail aside, I understand where you are coming from with the individual vs state/God/preacher/Jesus/etc thing, but I don't think it's accurate. I will acknowledge that there were/are those in the "feed her" side who maintained that God wanted Terri to live, and that anything short of keeping everyone alive with any means available is wrong. I don't agree with those people, and I don't identify with them. But we were on the same overall side of this debate, weren't we?

To be honest, for you to say that I am against an individual's choice is a bit offensive to me I think. I support an individual's right to choose in matters that pertain to themselves. I support an individual's right to make his or her own choices about his or her medical care. I believe that cancer patients should have the right to refuse chemo. I believe that we all have the right to give DNR orders, to establish living wills outlining what medical assistance we will and will not accept in life or death situations, etc. I support all of that. So does that not make in in favor of an individuals choice?

What I do not support is an absolute rule of who gets to make choices BESIDES the individual. I do not believe in a rule of law that says that if you have a piece of paper that says your married, then you can make life or death medical choices for someone other than yourself no matter what. I also do not believe that if you have an established, long term loving relationship with a person that has everything EXCEPT the piece of paper saying your married, that you can and should be excluded completely from life and death decisions.

To me, this is not an issue of individual rights. It's a question of who besides the individual can and should speak for the individual.

[strawman]

Who's next on your hit list, death merchants? The elderly? The infirm? The mentally retarded? What burden to society is next?


After all, human life is no more valuable than a pile of dog shit, is it death merchants?

I'm sick of your culture of death, I'm sick of your moral relativism. I still believe in a right and a wrong. Obviously, you (Left) do not.

I think those quotes sum up stratmans feelings right now....but how many prisoners have been executed in the US whilst professing their innocence...yeah and which other western "civilised" cultures still enforce a death penalty (a lot of repeal came about because it was found innocent people were being executed)...I do agree, it seems life is no more valuable than dog shit in the US....damn death merchants....