CE9

[chrisfan]

Shin, it's time for you to take your own advice. Go volunteer somewhere. You're really starting to embarass yourself with the way that you rally against believing gossip in one breath, and then repeat it in the next. I thought that Ben Affleck was the most embarassing thing to represent Boston, but really ... you're making Ben look like a genius about now.

[shin]

Given that my name is Ben, thank you for the compliment. And I assure you that I'm not embarrassing myself whatsoever.

[chrisfan]

Mr Affleck didn't think he was when he made Gigli either.

[shin]

And you probably didn't when you went to that Barry Manilow concert either.

[shin]

Now answer me this before I have to go: what should my family do about my grandmother? If her condition gets outrageously worse, how should they handle it? And how should they deal with my great uncle once she dies, making him the last remaining member of the immediate family that controls the trust? They're already taking legal action against him for various reasons, is this wrong? Should we be forgiving, given that he genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing? I'd also like to hear Amp and stratman's moral take on the subject.

[chrisfan]

Oh boy, you got me there! I went to a Barry Manilow concert, for free, with some co-workers, where we drank a lot of wine and laughed a lot! Then, I posted it on a message board, making fun of myself as I did. Yep, you got one on me there Shin. Good one! I'll go hang my head in shame now. If only I could be delusional and self-obsessed like you ...

[chrisfan]

shin said:

Now answer me this before I have to go: what should my family do about my grandmother? If her condition gets outrageously worse, how should they handle it? And how should they deal with my great uncle once she dies, making him the last remaining member of the immediate family that controls the trust? They're already taking legal action against him for various reasons, is this wrong? Should we be forgiving, given that he genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing? I'd also like to hear Amp and stratman's moral take on the subject.

Not that you really want an answer, but I'm going to give it anyway.

What to do for your grandmohter? Pray. Respect her wishes that she's made known clearly. Beyond that, provide the medical care that she needs.

For your uncle? Pray for him too. My father has served as the executor for several of my family member's estates. He's always gone into it with the approach that he'd rather lose money than lose family. I've always admired and agreed with him for that approach. And, I hope that one day, you'll be able to forgive him. I fully recognize that it is not easy, and probably won't happen today ... just like I will strive to forgive Michael Schiavo, but I recognize that forgiveness won't come today.

I know it wasn't asked for, and may not be wanted, but I will keep all of your family in my prayers.

[rockysigman]

Says Chrisfan:

Silence and lurking look good on you Rocky.

This is a comment that I KNOW you would not tolerate someone else saying to you. The reason I haven't said much on the Terri Schiavo matter is because I'm incredibly tired of an issue that we have no business even knowing about let alone taking over our news for months at a time. If I want to comment on it though, my comments are as valuable as yours, and I will not sit back while you imply that this board is better off without me here. I know you're very emotionally involved with this issue, and that's fine, but a jab like this doesn't exactly add anything to the discourse on the topic.

But to answer your question, I hope to God that we DON'T just move on from this now. If this country is willing to just look away comfortably from the way that we will throw away unwanted or undesirable lives so easily, I will remain very very very sad.

Well, in that case I hope that one day your most private and difficult family decisions are the only thing the entire country can talk about. I hope one day you have the press waiting outside your window or in your hospital room digging up every minute detail about the most important and personal decisions that you will ever have to make. Good luck with that.

And so long as we're talking about "the most unwanted or undesirable lives" then let's start with capital punishment and homelessness, and not private family matters that the rest of us have no business being involved in. Not only are they inherently community issues, whereas this is not, but they are issues that CANNOT be solved without community and/or government involvement, whereas in nearly all cases, private family issues like this one can be solved without government interjection.

And to take a bit of a turn in my ramblings here, the thing that had me most frustrated in all the constant barrage of this story. Whatever issues that did need to be addressed publicly regarding this story, they could have been addressed with way less coverage than this. Aside from the fact that the Schiavos and Schindlers did not need all of us knowing every little detail, the public in general could be better served by a better balance of stories. Based on the news coverage, you'd think nothing else important happened in the world in at least the last month. Giving so much attention to one family's private struggle means that that much less attention is given to all sorts of other things that we all need to be knowing about, learning about, and discussing.

I'm sick of hearing about this story, and I really don't think anything is going to be accomplished by continuing the insanity surrounding this matter. In this regard, I think the constant level of discussion about Terri Schiavo long ago went past the point where we were really going to learn anything about ourselves or our society because the barrage of info and the intensity of the debate became so intense that everyone solidified their beliefs on the matter a long time ago and no one on any of the many sides of this debate are going to change any time soon. Just read the last however many insufferable pages on this board. It doesn't matter what anybody says about this issue, it's all been said before, and everyone has already decided how they feel about it.

It's time to move on already. Seriously.

[chrisfan]

RockySigman said:

Says Chrisfan:



This is a comment that I KNOW you would not tolerate someone else saying to you. The reason I haven't said much on the Terri Schiavo matter is because I'm incredibly tired of an issue that we have no business even knowing about let alone taking over our news for months at a time. If I want to comment on it though, my comments are as valuable as yours, and I will not sit back while you imply that this board is better off without me here. I know you're very emotionally involved with this issue, and that's fine, but a jab like this doesn't exactly add anything to the discourse on the topic.

DIdn't say that it added anything to the discourse. I know that not everything I say around here does. I also did not say that your comments are not valuable (you have not made any though ... I guess that no comments usually AREN'T valuable to a discussion are they?). I also did not say the board is better off without you here.

The comment that I made came from frustration from what I see as rather distasteful coming from a man who has said ZERO about the topic, chiming in to say move on finally, on the day that the woman being discussed dies. I thought it was tasteless a few hours ago, and to be honest, I still do. Discussions about Nick Cave, The Clash, and Wilco bore me to tears. Ever hear me bitch about it on any music boards. No? That's because when I see a discussion I'm not interested in, I skip it.

[chrisfan]

RockySigman said:

Says Chrisfan:

Well, in that case I hope that one day your most private and difficult family decisions are the only thing the entire country can talk about. I hope one day you have the press waiting outside your window or in your hospital room digging up every minute detail about the most important and personal decisions that you will ever have to make. Good luck with that.

I know you went to Michigan and all, but come on, you're smarter than this! You cannot seriously hide behind the "private family matter" on this one. It is normal recourse than when private family matters cannot be settled privately among family members they go to the courts. It is also in the set up of the government that the courts, the legislature, and the executive branch are equal members of the government.

I mean, if we're to apply your rules here, custody disputes are private family matters. Sometimes, when a person does not like a custody decision, they resort to kidnapping the child. Should we abolish Amber alerts, because kidnappings are more often than not committed by family members, and custody disputes are private family matters?

Yes, I will agree with you that some aspects of this story have been an invasion, and they are disgusting. I find it disgusting that Sean Hannity has been camped outside the hospice since the feeding tube was removed. I find it disgusting that the demonstrators have been camped out there as well, causing undue hardship for all of the families of patients in the hospice.

But I competely disagree that this matter has absolutely no place in the public discourse. This case has absolutely brought to the forefront the decisions we must make about life and death. I believe that the disabled, elderly, and most sick among us need to be covered in that debate. You believe that the homeless and capital punishedment need to be a part of the discussion as well. I'm fine with that. But if we take your approach, then NONE of it will be discussed.

You're sick of it, and I can respect that. So turn it off. Don't check in on discussion boards that are discussing it. You are in control of your destiny.

[rockysigman]

Chrisfan said:

I also did not say the board is better off without you here.

/

If you can explain another way I could have interpreted "Silence and lurking look good on you" than I'd love to hear it.

Anyway, I guess its pretty interesting for me to find out that since I've remained silent about the issue up to this point, I'm no longer allowed to chime in. For now on, I'll drop you a PM to ask if I've passed the deadline for entering a conversation before I do so. Until then, I'm off this board until it's done with this topic, because, as I've said, I'm tired of it, and continuing discussing it is distracting from other important things. In this case I'll voice my opinion by staying silent on it, because that's how I really feel we all should be on it.

You can get back to your petty cat fight now. I won't interrupt you again.

[Thorngrub]

ok, well this is CE 9, time for a clean slate. I apologize on account of my hose-head self if any of my prior rash of postings offended.

As for "banning me", Lady, you are right: strat-0 has that perogative and well he should retain that perogative, as the board manager. But banning me would only serve to make me a Sad Panda. We each vented in our own way, no skin off my back, and hopefully strat-0 knows I hold no grudges or even hard feelings.

I could respond to chrisfan's assertion that I don't stand for anything, but what is the point, when you really get right down to it? I could tell her I "believe in nothing" as well as point out that I believe in everything, and then I could even put it in finer perspective by adding that this is merely one way of saying I believe in Belief itself, but what good would that do Chrisfan-? She would have as difficult a time understanding ME as I have understanding HER.

The fact remains that I certainly do stand for something, it is just something so very difficult to translate for someone else (of course that seldom stops me from trying).

- - - - - - - - - -

What bothers me the most is the divisiveness experienced in this microcosm of a board. Obviously that same divisiveness is paralleled in the greater (macro)cosms of each subsequently larger group you care to focus on: that of your State, be it Red or Blue; that of your Region, be it North or South; that of the entire Nation; and indeed, that of the World.

Perhaps the thing to do is merely accept this "divisiveness" as being the most plain & natural thing in the world.

Just maybe -- without it -- the world would stop spinning-!!

In any event -- I truly enjoy interfacing with each and every one of you here (why else would I keep my ass perpetually hangin around).

Peace out,

thoRny

[chrisfan]

RockySigman said:

If you can explain another way I could have interpreted "Silence and lurking look good on you" than I'd love to hear it.

I'd say you should take it about the same way that you intended for me and others to take your "Can we move on now" comment. I mean, clearly you find it offensive that you perceive I'm expecting you to ask my permission on the timeliness of new contributors to a discussion topic. You find that offensive, but see nothing wrong with what would, if we're applying the rules equally here, be the equivilent in your telling people to move on? Either they are BOTH an attempt to control the discussion, or else neither is.

[rockysigman]

Chrisfan said:

I know you went to Michigan and all, but come on, you're smarter than this! You cannot seriously hide behind the "private family matter" on this one. It is normal recourse than when private family matters cannot be settled privately among family members they go to the courts. It is also in the set up of the government that the courts, the legislature, and the executive branch are equal members of the government.

I mean, if we're to apply your rules here, custody disputes are private family matters. Sometimes, when a person does not like a custody decision, they resort to kidnapping the child. Should we abolish Amber alerts, because kidnappings are more often than not committed by family members, and custody disputes are private family matters?

Yes, I will agree with you that some aspects of this story have been an invasion, and they are disgusting. I find it disgusting that Sean Hannity has been camped outside the hospice since the feeding tube was removed. I find it disgusting that the demonstrators have been camped out there as well, causing undue hardship for all of the families of patients in the hospice.

But I competely disagree that this matter has absolutely no place in the public discourse. This case has absolutely brought to the forefront the decisions we must make about life and death. I believe that the disabled, elderly, and most sick among us need to be covered in that debate. You believe that the homeless and capital punishedment need to be a part of the discussion as well. I'm fine with that. But if we take your approach, then NONE of it will be discussed.

You're sick of it, and I can respect that. So turn it off. Don't check in on discussion boards that are discussing it. You are in control of your destiny.

I'm responding to this because it went up before I got my last post up, but after this, seriously, I'm done.

Yes, it is normal for the courts to get involved in family disputes. It is not normal or at all proper for the legislature to pass a law that applies to only one person. This, I would think, would be beyond horrifying to a true conservative, but even as a liberal, I find it pretty appalling. That's about as far from democracy as this nation is capable of. If the legislature doesn't like the judicial interpretation of their law, then they should change the law--not pass an amendment that only applies to one person. To do so is pretty solid proof to me that the legislature agrees with the court's interpretation of the law -- if they didn't they'd get that law off the books -- and are passing such a law for another reason.

The kidnapping angle isn't even really worth mentioning, because its a completely unrelated issue. Kidnapping is a felony. Disagreeing on the wishes of a family member is not. Up until the point that a kidnapping occurs though, a custody dispute is completely a family matter, and again, we have no business getting involved. I think you can see the difference between enforcing felony laws on one hand and passing a law that applies to one individual person to settle a family dispute in which no laws have been broken on the other. If you don't see the difference, then we're too far apart for it to be worth discussing.

Yes, the three branches are equal, but that does not mean they do the same thing. They have different roles to play, all equally important. What's also important is the separation of powers. In fact, its probably the biggest innovation that our Constitution provided. Congress and the president passing such specific laws to try to cancel out judicial decisions is a pretty big breach of this principle, and if it were to become precedent or at all accepted, would lead to a complete impossibility of any of the branches accomplishing anything.

Certainly discussing life and death issues is something that our society has to do from time to time, but people have become so focused on the specifics of this specific situation, that we are NOT discussing how our society deals with life and death, we are only discussing how our society deals with the life and death of Terri Shiavo, or how we will next deal with someone in her exact situation. The story has gone so over the top that nearly everyone involved in debating it has completely lost sight of what the issues are and instead are just discussing the specifics of this case which will almost never arise again in the same way in another circumstance. The debate has spun out of control to the point of being completely meaningless.

[chrisfan]

RockySigman said:

The kidnapping angle isn't even really worth mentioning, because its a completely unrelated issue. Kidnapping is a felony. Disagreeing on the wishes of a family member is not. Up until the point that a kidnapping occurs though, a custody dispute is completely a family matter, and again, we have no business getting involved. I think you can see the difference between enforcing felony laws on one hand and passing a law that applies to one individual person to settle a family dispute in which no laws have been broken on the other. If you don't see the difference, then we're too far apart for it to be worth discussing.

Not feeding a person who can swallow in Florida is illegal. It's considered to be murder. Whether or not Terri Schiavo could swallow was STRONGLY a matter of debate, primarily because the court refused to order a swallow test. I am in no way saying that allowing a person to carry out his wishes to die is murder. But this particular case depended on a couple of very key and disputed factors to determine whether it was murder or a merciful way to die. The kidnapping parent rarely views what they are doing as illegal either.