CE9

[Nepenthe]

thorny said:

Consider this - - there was a time when we were all on the same side, more or less. (In American history...& I'm sure it can be applied across the board, largely)

(There was not such a distinction seperating "right" from "left")

And I believe there is still room for the argument that we are still more or less on the same page -- that is, Righties and Lefties -- only, each would never admit it to themselves.

It's all a matter of varying perspectives.

~

Also - - I find it amusing that some here can agree about this being "just a board" and use that in their own defense, when in fact that same argument can be legitimately turned against their very cause. Cuz after all - - it IS just a fackin board.

Everybody lighten up why don't you and pretend like nothin happened. sheesh

Thorn, I disagree with you. The ideology of the left and right are indeed very different.

Its called individualism. Period. Everyone is not cut from the same cookie cutter and we are not all robots.

[Thorngrub]

I suppose the ability to ban people from specific boards (such as this one for instance) would solve a lot. I see there's a problem, and it has to do with a minority wishing to control the majority, once again. some things never change

[Thorngrub]

nymphofantasia said:

thorny said:

Consider this - - there was a time when we were all on the same side, more or less. (In American history...& I'm sure it can be applied across the board, largely)

(There was not such a distinction seperating "right" from "left")

And I believe there is still room for the argument that we are still more or less on the same page -- that is, Righties and Lefties -- only, each would never admit it to themselves.

It's all a matter of varying perspectives.

~

Also - - I find it amusing that some here can agree about this being "just a board" and use that in their own defense, when in fact that same argument can be legitimately turned against their very cause. Cuz after all - - it IS just a fackin board.

Everybody lighten up why don't you and pretend like nothin happened. sheesh

Thorn, I disagree with you. The ideology of the left and right are indeed very different.

Its called individualism. Period. Everyone is not cut from the same cookie cutter and we are not all robots.

Sweetie, I appreciate your disagreeing with me. HOwever, I can not for the life of me make out why, from what you've said.

"Individualism" = I know what that is.

I know we are not all cut from the same cookie mold, and that we are not all robots (although sometimes I wonder...).

So, if you would please further explain why you disagree, that would be cool. Would you care to clarify further-?

[Nepenthe]

Thorn people have always been split on their opinions on how our government should be run. From the very beginning of our "American" history.

Even during the revolutionary war not all American's agreed and some stayed neutral. The Quakers were one of the groups that wished to stay neutral, and they themselves even split over this within their group.

I don't know what else you want me to say to explain what I mean.

[someone]

I think the government should ban ugly people from posting naked pictures of themselves on the internet.

[strat-0]

Riley, I've read your post twice, but I don't really understand what you're trying to say. You're going to reduce your participation in the forum because we're trying to re-establish some kind of order for the people here who would like to be able to engage in a discussion on a message board without the board being sabotaged by vandals and rendered useless?

I'm a busy man too (and I've spent way too much time on this today), but what is so funny about people who want to use a discussion board for its intended purpose? There are dozens of different kinds of threads here, and this is a very easy going forum compared to most. Many people here might benefit from checking out a few other message boards and seeing what they're like. Common courtesy is a requirement, and it usually is here too. Common sense is also helpful. What flies on one thread may not fly at another. Rocket science, see?

Oh, well - I gotta run. Have fun, all! Later.

[chrisfan]

thorny said:

jackory said:

Sure...Grand old time with everyone agreeing with each other.
Not a lot of legitimate debate, though.

Here I disagree.

Right vs Left is no "debate" - it is debauchary.

Whereas Left vs Left (or Right vs Right I imagine) there is ample room for fine-tuning, and constructive debating. Just cuz you share the same side of the political spectrum most certainly does not mean you agree on everything.

I disagree here. Well, sort of. I think there is a split in debate these days between "right vs left" and right / left. Doesn't look very different on the surface, but it is.

To me, the "right vs left" is a battle of "your side sucks", "no, yours does". It comes from a viewpoint of being angry that there are people who believe things that go against what you believe. It happens here often, but not all the time. I think some examples of this would be "Christians" who stand ona street corner and declare that God hates fags, non-religious people who mock the concept of God and those who believe in Him, people declaring those who dissent with the government to be anti-American, etc.

"right / left" debate on the other hand is an exchange of ideas. Each side explains why they believe what they believe, and asks questions about why the other viewpiont believes what they do. There is a hell of a lot more learning for everyone involved in this type of debate. I have learned a hell of a lot from several liberal people on these boards through this type of debate. In most cases, it has not changed my viewpoint, but I've been able to at least appreciate differing viewpoints more than I did before. As a matter of fact, I've even found myself in discussions with other conservatives other places defending liberal viewpoints because of discussions that I've had on these boards that fell in line with this sort of debate.

Biggest difference between the two: respect

[Nepenthe]

New Yorkers Sue Over Random Bag Searches
Along With a Rights Group, They Call the Policy a Rights Violation
By LARRY NEUMEISTER, AP

NEW YORK (Aug. 4) - Five city subway riders and a civil liberties group sued the city Thursday to stop random police inspections of bags in subways, calling the searches ineffective, unconstitutional and a publicity stunt that does not enhance safety.

"It's a needle-in-the-haystack approach to law enforcement," said Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, which filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Manhattan.

She and other members of the group who spoke at a news conference to announce the lawsuit said they want police to stop terrorists and improve safety, but not with useless measures designed to give subway riders a false sense of security.

Christopher Dunn, the New York Civil Liberties Union's associate legal director, said the policy announced July 21 was akin to a random search of people's bags and packages on public streets and a violation of a fundamental civil right.

But Gail Donoghue, a city lawyer, said the subway searches meet all legal requirements and preserve "the important balance between protecting our city and preserving individual rights."


"What is the point of searching a bunch of grandmas going down the subway steps with their Macy's bags?"
-Christopher Dunn

She added, "We believe the NYCLU is shortsighted in failing to recognize this. We are confident our position will prevail in court."

Spot checks by the NYCLU since the policy began show that police conduct the searches at few stations with little effect since anyone can refuse the search and enter the subway's 468 stations at another point, he said.

As a result, he said, only innocent people are subjected to the unreasonable search and seizure that the Constitution outlaws.

"What is the point of searching a bunch of grandmas going down the subway steps with their Macy's bags?" he asked.

Among five plaintiffs was Brendan MacWade, 32, who escaped the World Trade Center towers after they were struck by hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001.

"I want to catch terrorists as much as any politicians or officials but this policy does not work," he said.

[Galactus]

Biggest difference between the two: respect

I agreed right up to this line. Neither side really pretends too hard to respect the other, it's just the disrespect comes in different disguises.

[strat-0]

DED, I think you missed the thrust of Chris' post: a distinction between "right vs left" and "right / left" in approaching issues. It may seem a subtle distinction, but she made a good point.

Mary made good points too. And Phil... And others...

[Galactus]

Ok I see. Sorry I thought she was saying the different between right and left was respect. I saw it as a dig, I guess I read that wrong. Yeah, I think everybody has made good points today. I realise we got pretty obnoxious but also you have to admit that disrespect on the board level happens on both sides...we, the left, are just more blatant about it. Just because someone's not flipping you off doesn't mean they're not insulting you. That's one of things that really bugs me about this board sometimes is this guise of civility is sometimes more insulting then if you just told somone to fuck off.

[chrisfan]

Strat-o is right that I mean the difference between the two types of debates is respect, and not the difference between the two sides. that is why I was very intentional in the examples I gave to give examples of BOTH sides being guilty of not showing respect. FWIW, I did not intend to limit my comments to debate exclusively on THIS board, but debate over politics in general ... even in the non-web world.

[JACkory]

someone said:

nymphofantasia said:

Oh and Jac, no offense taken by the deleting of the post. It probably wasn't that appropriate for this thread really. I was just trying to make a point.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make by posting this quote from my religion & spirituality board (not that I care, but someone else might)...
To provide a touch of context, let me say that it is in regards to a post (actually a series of posts) from Pissin (and maybe one or two from shin) that I had just deleted from the board due to the fact that they had absolutely nothing to do with the board topic (and of course Pissin's were his typical annoyance act).
For the record, Pissin has been virtually banned from my board ever since then (and that was, what, a couple of weeks ago?)...in other words, his posts got deleted immediately REGARDLESS of whether he was on topic or not. I'd come to the point where I could no longer tolerate his bullshit...and so I exercised my right as the board's moderator to delete him. If it makes you feel better, I'll put it this way: I proudly exercised my right to censor him. He deserved it and I feel absolutely no guilt.
I will do the same to anyone else who posts in a manner similar to Pissin's.
If that means noone will post there anymore, then so be it. I've got a slew of boards here that noone posts on. Won't hurt my feelings a bit. But most folks are respectful enough when they post on the religion board to stick to the topic and not go out of their way to offend. I owe it to them to take care of business when it needs to be taken care of, and I feel nothing but complete apathy for the opinion of anyone who would bemoan such "censorship".

[Nepenthe]

Ahhh yes I remember that day, thats when I told shin he needs to start his own thread called "Shin's Homoerotic Fantasy Thread". ;D

[Nepenthe]

An unholy alliance
Aryan Nation leader reaches out to al Qaeda
By Henry Schuster
CNN

March 29, 2005
Editor's Note: Henry Schuster, a senior producer in CNN's Investigative Unit, has been covering terrorism for more than a decade. Each week in "Tracking Terror," he reports on the people and organizations driving international and domestic terrorism and efforts to combat those. He is the author of the newly published book, "Hunting Eric Rudolph."

SEBRING, Florida (CNN) -- A couple of hours up the road from where some September 11 hijackers learned to fly, the new head of Aryan Nation is praising them -- and trying to create an unholy alliance between his white supremacist group and al Qaeda.

"You say they're terrorists, I say they're freedom fighters. And I want to instill the same jihadic feeling in our peoples' heart, in the Aryan race, that they have for their father, who they call Allah."

With his long beard and potbelly, August Kreis looks more like a washed up member of ZZ Top than an aspiring revolutionary.

Don't let appearances fool you: his résumé includes stops at some of America's nastiest extremist groups -- Posse Comitatus, the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nation.

"I don't believe that they were the ones that attacked us," Kreis said. "And even if they did, even if you say they did, I don't care!"

Kreis wants to make common cause with al Qaeda because, he says, they share the same enemies: Jews and the American government.

The terms they use may be different: White supremacists call them ZOG, the Zionist Occupation Government, while al Qaeda calls them the Jews and Crusaders.

But the hatred is the same. And Kreis wants to exploit that.

A Nation in turmoil
The best thing that can be said about August Kreis is that he has helped preside over the decline of the once-feared Aryan Nation, a movement inspired by the racist tenets of Nazi Germany. He cannot or will not say how many followers the group now has.

What's clear is that Aryan Nation had a violent streak aligned with its anti-Semitic and racist ideology. One of its followers, Buford Furrow, received two life sentences, plus 110 years, for an August 1999 shooting spree in which he shot and wounded four children and one adult at a Jewish community center in the Los Angeles suburb of Granada Hills. Furrow then drove to nearby Chatsworth, California, where he shot and killed a Filipino-American postal carrier.

Others had been accused of involvement in bank robberies, shootouts with authorities and the murders of blacks and others.

More recently, the Aryan Nation lost its Hayden Lake, Idaho, compound, after losing a civil suit led by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Last year, founder Richard Butler died just as the group's leaders were fighting amongst themselves.

Around that time, Kreis tried to open up shop for Aryan Nation in northern Pennsylvania, but got run out by locals. Now he is in Sebring, Florida, and, although his rhetoric is full of revolution and defiance, he wanted to meet our CNN crew at a local park because he didn't want trouble from his neighbors.

You might think white supremacists like Kreis would spurn al Qaeda, since they tend to view non-Aryan Christians as, in their own term, "mud people." In fact, most of them do. But Kreis wants to change that.

"That's old-school racism, white supremacy, this is something new," he said. "We have to be realists and realize what didn't work [previously] isn't going to work in the future."

Supremacist, Islamist connections
The idea of a Nazi-Islamic alliance dates back to World War II, when Adolf Hitler played host to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, that city's Muslim leader. Some Nazis, moreover, found refuge in places like Egypt and Syria after the war.

Three years ago, I met a Swiss Islamic convert named Ahmed Huber, who began his life as a devotee of Adolf Hitler and moved on to praising former Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini, who led that nation's Islamic revolution and vigorously opposed U.S. policies.

Huber wanted to forge a fresh alliance between Islamic radicals and neo-Nazis in Europe and the United States. And he cannot be simply dismissed as a crackpot: Huber served on the board of directors of a Swiss bank and holding company that President Bush accused of helping fund al Qaeda.

Mark Potok, of the Southern Poverty Law Center, said that while some U.S. extremists applauded the September 11 attacks, there is no indication of such an alliance -- at least not yet, and not on a large scale. If it exists anywhere, he said, it is in the mind (and the Internet postings) of August Kreis.

For its part, the FBI says it hasn't seen any links between American white supremacists and groups like al Qaeda.

"The notion of radical Islamists from abroad actually getting together with American neo-Nazis I think is an absolutely frightening one," said Potok. "It's just that so far we really have no evidence at all to suggest this is any kind of real collaboration."

So while August Kreis may be calling, there is no sign that al Qaeda is listening.

But that hasn't stopped him. As we ended our interview, we asked Kreis if he had any message for Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants.

"The message is, the cells are out here and they are already in place," Kreis said. "They might not be cells of Islamic people, but they are here and they are ready to fight."



Isn't that nice...