CE9

[stratman19]

rockkid said:

And I must say smokie considering some of the TA’s I imagine you’ve responded to I’m rather surprised at your apparent no quarter on life support issues.

Rock, it's not that I give no quarter. It's not that at all. I support living wills, DNR orders, the right of a patient to self determination. I support a cancer patient's right to refuse chemo, a terminally ill patient to die in peace, etc.

It's just that so much of this case was bullshit. And it's true, I'll defend life in a case like this. I hope I always believe in erring on the side of life.

[stratman19]

maarts said:

I actually read Stratman's post too with a degree of wonder, but Thorn's post below it was well put in a restraint way.

Oh yeah, living in Australia's not for the faint-hearted. If not for the toads- you should see the size of the cockroaches here.

I feel sorry for the platypus.

I think the platypus is cool!

[chrisfan]

I have to say that at this point, I truly do not understand why on earth there is still this insistence that being against the tube removal in Terri Schiavo's case is the equivilient of being against a persons' right to die. I'd like to believe there is more to it than this, but at this point, I honestly have to say that anyone who still believes that is cluelelss about the facts of the case.

[stratman19]

RockySigman said:

So what does everyone think of Paul Wolfowitz's election to World Bank President?

I think Wolfowitz can do some good things at the World Bank.

[Galactus]

Attorney: Terri's husband cradled her
'It was a very emotional moment for many of us there'

Thursday, March 31, 2005 Posted: 8:54 PM EST (0154 GMT)

(CNN) -- Terri Schiavo died a "calm, peaceful and gentle death" around 9 a.m. ET Thursday, cradled by her husband and legal guardian, Michael, said attorney George Felos.

Felos, who is Michael's Schiavo's attorney, told reporters that when his client entered his wife's room at the at the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, about 8:45 a.m., "it was apparent that it was the final moments for Mrs. Schiavo."

Also in the room were hospice caregivers; Michael's brother, Brian; and another Schiavo attorney, Deborah Bushnell, said Felos, who was himself there.

Terri Schiavo died nearly two weeks after doctors, acting on an order issued by a state circuit court judge, removed her life-sustaining feeding tube.

Her death came less than 12 hours after the U.S. Supreme Court rejected her parents' last appeal. It was the second time in a week the high court had refused to hear the case and the sixth time since 2001.

She was 41 and had been incapacitated since 1990 after suffering a heart attack that caused permanent brain damage.

Her husband has said she suffered from bulimia, an eating disorder, that resulted in a potassium deficiency that triggered the heart failure.

Felos said Michael Schiavo had been staying in a room just down the hall from his wife for the past two weeks, ever since her feeding tube was removed March 18 on an order issued at Schiavo's request by Pasco-Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer.

Felos said it had become apparent Wednesday that she was nearing death, with her heart beating rapidly, her skin mottling and her breathing becoming more difficult.

Even in Terri Schiavo's final moments, there was one last dispute between her husband and other family members -- with Michael Schiavo rejecting a request by her brother, Bobby Schindler, to be in the room.

The Schindler family and Michael Schiavo have feuding for years in a case over the right to die and the determination of who decides in the absence of a living will.

Bobby Schindler and his sister, Suzanne Vitadamo, had been in the room visiting their sibling for about an hour and 45 minutes when a hospice administrator notified Michael Schiavo that his wife was in her final stages.

The hospice official asked the siblings to leave the room so that Schiavo's condition could be evaluated.

Felos said that according to a hospice administrator Schindler resisted and got into a dispute with a law enforcement officer there, saying he wanted to stay in the room, too.

"Mr. Schiavo's overriding concern was Mrs. Schiavo has a right and had a right to die with dignity and die in peace," Felos said. "She had a right to have her last and final moments on this Earth be experienced by a spirit of love and not of acrimony."

He added, "I emphasize it because this death was not for the siblings and not for the spouse and not for the parents. This was for Terri."

Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, had begged to be with their firstborn while she drew her last breath but police denied their request, said Brother Paul O'Donnell, the Schindlers' spokesman and spiritual adviser.

When they were notified that their daughter had died, the couple hurriedly came to the hospice and stayed in the room where her body lay.

"It's our understanding that the Schindlers spent some time with Terri's body," Felos said. "They were free to spend as much time as they chose with her body. After they left, the hospice workers bathed Terri's body, and Mr. Schiavo and all of us went back in to spend some more time."

Michael Schiavo was not present in the room during their visit.
'Terri, we love you dearly'

At one point about 30 to 40 hospice workers, many of whom had stayed past their shifts, formed a circle around Terri Schiavo's body, Felos said. A hospice chaplain said a prayer, he said.

"It was a very emotional moment for many of us there," Felos said.

Bobby Schindler later told reporters: "Terri, we love you dearly, but we know that God loves you more than we do. We must accept your untimely death as God's will."

Neither he nor his sister mentioned that morning's incident in the hospice room, but they both indirectly criticized their brother-in-law.

"After these recent years of neglect at the hand of those who were supposed to protect and care for her, she is finally at peace with God for eternity," Vitadamo said.

[shin]

My understanding of Wolfowitz is that he's one of the "few" "good" neocons, at least at his heart. The only problem is that historically he's been completely incompetent. If the World Bank can survive incompetence, that's good, but then there's the matter of the fact that global finances will be greatly influenced by imperialists.

[shin]

Did I say "influenced"? I meant "controlled".

[shin]

Chrisfan said:

Not that you really want an answer, but I'm going to give it anyway.

What to do for your grandmohter? Pray. Respect her wishes that she's made known clearly. Beyond that, provide the medical care that she needs.

For your uncle? Pray for him too. My father has served as the executor for several of my family member's estates. He's always gone into it with the approach that he'd rather lose money than lose family. I've always admired and agreed with him for that approach. And, I hope that one day, you'll be able to forgive him. I fully recognize that it is not easy, and probably won't happen today ... just like I will strive to forgive Michael Schiavo, but I recognize that forgiveness won't come today.

I know it wasn't asked for, and may not be wanted, but I will keep all of your family in my prayers.

Thanks, but I wasn't looking for prayers, I was looking for answers. If my family decides something you don't agree with, would you recommend Congress convene Sunday at midnight to compose emergency unconstitutional legislation, and rouse the president out of his slumber to sign it in his pajamas, or does that only happen on special occasions? And if so, what such decisions would have to come to pass for this to occur? I gotta say, my family's a bit spooked by the timing of all this, I know the concept of Congress getting involved with our persona affairs almost brought my uncle to tears. We'd appreciate the heads up, ya know? It's a brave new world out there, and you can't really say "oh, I'm sure Congress won't get involved", can you?

[rockkid]

First to shin & shin alone & only since you’re asking…….. I’d say get a damn good lawyer before it’s too late.


Now for the rest

Morphine is standard issue (if you’ll pardon the term) in almost all hospice deaths or last days of decline if you will. Most common in cancer patients.

However you would never give it when respiratory problems are present.

I’m not a doctor either but I choose to garner my information from medical texts & clinical publications rather than news reports slanted to either side. ***(note….. either side).

I must say I find this eagerness to accept as verbatim very trying (& no I’m not referring to you specifically chris).

But think about it rockkid ... If I'm wrong here, then you've been wrong all along in saying that she wasn't suffering.

To highlight how confused some folks are getting in their zeal. You are mistaking me with others.

I never once expressed an opinion on suffering or lack there of. Fact………. The only thing I expressed opinion on and I’ll stand firmly by it was my opinion that this had no place in any public/media form.

It's just that so much of this case was bullshit.

Agreed smokie in as much as it became so when it became public.



I will say this as my final commentary on this issue.
I do indeed find the “barring” of her parents at the last moment to be inexcusable.

With medical staff present they hardly could have gotten away with inserting anything.

I sincerely doubt they would have even tried. With the airway etc the risk of out & out killing her by amateur hands is not one I venture they’d have been willing to take.

[someone]

Well congratulations, death merchants. Your side has been on quite a roll. Cheer on Liberals. Your decades old campaign to de-value human life has been a smashing success. You must be very proud. 40 million abortions, and counting; Terri Schiavo (the most recent). What living human being do we get to starve to death next? Rolling right on down that ol' slippery slope of euthanasia...

Who's next on your hit list, death merchants? The elderly? The infirm? The mentally retarded? What burden to society is next?

Can I make a suggestion? Given the looming crisis of Social Security/Medicare, I vote for murdering the elderly next. You know, that pesky ol' baby boom generation. Hey, I'm a part of it, so feel free to take me out too. I don't play favorites. After we've unburdened Social Security/Medicare, there'll be plenty of time to murder the rest. After all, human life is no more valuable than a pile of dog shit, is it death merchants?

I'm sick of your culture of death, I'm sick of your moral relativism. I still believe in a right and a wrong. Obviously, you (Left) do not.

Terri Schiavo deserved to live. There was enough questions around her situation to demand it. A query...why didn't Michael Schiavo just relinquish guardianship? He could've moved on with his life, and Terri's parents could've cared for her. Who would have lost under this scenario? And by not even allowing her family to be there for her final moments...unforgivable. Michael Schiavo is a fucking bastard.

This country is truly fucked up when it takes a parent's/guardian's permission for a minor to get her ears pierced, yet that same minor can take a life (abortion) without even her parent's knowledge, let alone their counsel. Talk about a fucked up set of priorities...

Congratulations, death merchants. Kudos to the Left. Your side seems to be winning the culture war.

I admit this isn't a rational post, it's an emotional one. I made my feelings on this case clear many pages ago on this board. And I've been following it for a long time too, not just since the latest media circus, btw.

I also realize some of this post may be unfair, I'm just really pissed off right now. Attack me at your leisure. I'll respond when I can...well except for Shin. I don't respond to him on anything.

Sometimes, you people really piss me off. Sometimes I wonder if it's even worth it. Why do I invest money, time, and effort to advance my philosophy...I feel like I'm on a sinking ship. I'll continue to fight the good fight, even as I think I'll probably lose in the end. I just hope I'm taking a dirt nap when the Left finally wins...

Goddamned death merchants.

R.I.P Terri Schiavo.

I'm sorry, I have nothing new to add, I just had to put this up again. There's just too much awesome in this post.

[strawman]

I'm not a proponet of capital punishment, and I've said so on these boards. I've also said in the past that I'm glad Michigan doesn't have the death penalty (Michigan has never had it). Perhaps that surprises you. Perhaps it doesn't.

stratman...no it doesn't surprise me, particularly regarding your stance on euthanasia...but that comment I made to solicit this reply of yours, just may have been made to hopefully put this entire debate into some sort of perspective.....(your words I think...sorry if I'm wrong)...we all only get one life....

I'm also sorry you feel that the the liberals and the"left" alone are the death merchants.........I think that is bullshit...sorry but with all due consideration, I think all ends and the middle of the political spectrum have caused "state sanctioned" deaths....

...oh and chrisfan...I notice you've resorted to namecalling again...I know it's a bad trait of everybody except you here, so lets try to only name call one person a day eh?...yeah like Lou said, "I'll be your mirror...reflect what you are....in case you don't know...."

[Rit]

There goes the Pope.

[Dr. Drum]

A friend’s mother passed away about two weeks ago after some time spent in palliative care. The hospital gave her morphine to remove fluid build-up and also, as I understood it, to regulate her respiratory functions.

Re: Wolfowitz – his nomination, and now confirmation, as World Bank president is totally inappropriate. As shin says, incompetence is one big strike against him; the other is that he has absolutely no qualifications to run a global development agency and no background in the field. He’s a diplomat and defense specialist, not a banker or expert on the developing world. A job like this is not an entry level position.

[Reservoir]

on morphine:

the effect you're talking about is commonly known as the "morphine double-effect". the drug does regulate breathing, but in higher doses it slows and eventually stops it completely. the incidence of doctors raising the morphine dose of a terminal patient with the dual intention of a) lessening their pain and b) stopping their breathing completely in a painless (and more or less legal) way is almost certainly higher than reported, in the UK at least.

in my opinion its a wonderful way around anti-euthenasia laws when the patient is wants to be "put out of their misery", but that's neither here not there.

[pissin2]

DED, KMC, Pissin, etc etc etc ... every damn poster around here, say whatever the hell you want. I will do the same

woohoo! HAIL SATAN!