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Post by chrisfan on Aug 2, 2005 19:33:43 GMT -5
Kenny, re 'not wanting to debate'...shit, if there's BEING a debate here, isn't someone flatout telling me I'm fulla shit without leaving me even a bit of wiggle room, some space where someone say...'Doc you make good points'...or interesting points, or something. I most certainly AM trying to leave room for discussion. But cut-and-dried B&W telling me, that 'No! Fuck, that's the kindest thing that they could do to this old fart' who has a very good chance of never having been there... So jeez, I dig in my heels, perhaps then not expressing my thoughts in a precise manner which is something shin's certain to attest to cos he kain't read.. C'mon, you don't see that then that's where my side of the discussion comes with me using my 'conviction' (interch w/ 'arrogance' sure wtever...fkit)in the way that part of the world's been forever demonized regarding the Holocaust without seeing any cause/effect during the 5 years occupation....and the bigger question of the honest reactions and motivations as the region was buffeted by the Russians and Germans...with MOST of the world having been proven as to not YET having the knowledge of the full extent of how far Hitler's 'final solution' was indeed going. The 'unspeakable' is only so totally clear to us all in hindsight here, but the historical perspective is very lacking here for the most part, for what went on day-to-day in those countries...now, really, I'm gone. Doc, I'm sorry, but I'm almost taking offense to what you're saying here. No one is seeing your side? I said multiple times that I could appreciate where you were coming from, could understand the empathy for the man, etc etc etc. Sorry, but I think this is one of those cases where you're intent to only see what you want to see in the discussion. And Shin is the one frothing here? No. |
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Post by stratman19 on Aug 2, 2005 19:38:25 GMT -5
Snipped from the former CE board...[ where you stand. My father is so far to the conservative side that he looks at something like Fox News or Rush Limbaugh and laments that they're too liberal, that they agree with George W Bush too much of the time, and they're left leaning. I think I'd like your dad! 
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Post by stratman19 on Aug 2, 2005 19:59:27 GMT -5
Doc, I'm going to weigh in on Josias Kumpf with my two cents worth. I'm late to the game, and may have missed something, but here goes. I only know what I've read too, so if more facts come to light, I may change my mind.
Anyway, I too DO understand (I think) where you're coming from. I'm just not sure I agree. I realize that he's an old man who has raised a family here. He also lied on his immigration application, and broke other rules. He was also a member of Hitler's SS. There seems to be some evidence that he may have committed war crimes. Did he? Hell, I don't know. Hopefully that will all come out in the wash. If it can be reasonably proven that he did, in my opinion he needs to be deported.
Yes, he may have had to make difficult choices. But perhaps if they were the wrong choices, some responsibility also comes.
I'm sorry Doc, but I see his age as irrelevant. We hunted Nazi war criminals for decades after the war. By the time we found some of them, they too were frail old men living in places like Argentina, Brazil, and other South American countries. They may have lived exemplary lives after the war too, I don't know, but their day of facing justice, for facing the consequences of their actions, had to come.
I'm not trying to piss you off, I hope you know that, but if this man is guilty, he should go. And that's just my opinion.
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Post by Galactus on Aug 2, 2005 21:26:59 GMT -5
DED, since you seemed to be so bothered by Bolton's recess appt., this might give you a bit of perspective. Then again, maybe not... I guess you missed the several posts where I said I don't question his right or ability to make such appointments. Rather I question the judgement in this case. I don't expect you to agree becuase you agree with both Bush and Bolton's politics...anyhow seeing as his goal is to go stir the shit anyway it probably doesn't matter. |
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Post by rockysigman on Aug 2, 2005 21:27:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I think when you're talking about horrendous crimes such as that, I just don't understand the perspective of, "Well, you got away with it this long. I guess everything's fine now." It seems to me that this rewards those who are best at evading justice. I don't like the thought of that.
And as far as the life he's lived since then...well, ever single Nazi who was caught and punished because of their war crimes may have lived exactly the same kind of life if they were allowed to. But I don't think that that means that we should have just given them the benefit of the doubt and set them loose to see what they'd do. Just because he managed to remain a fugitive for long enough to establish another life for himself doesn't mean that what he did earlier doesn't count.
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 3, 2005 9:38:12 GMT -5
Should've just left my unique viewpoint to myself, eh? Your viewpoint ain't so unique. I think the old geezer should be left alone, too. |
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 3, 2005 9:39:37 GMT -5
...but I recognize that forgiveness just isn't that high on most modern day Christian's priority list.
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Post by Galactus on Aug 3, 2005 10:43:12 GMT -5
I think both sides are right on this. The old bastard should be left alone but in court being an old bastard shouldn't get him off.
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Post by ken on Aug 3, 2005 10:46:12 GMT -5
This is crazy talk, though, and RocDoc ought to take no offense to this, but the discussion that was just had is the essence of the Chrisfan Events Board. You presented a topic and viewpoint, shin and Chrisfan acknowledged your points and provided reasons for the disagreement. Tough shit, man, this is what happens here.
This is one of the reasons why CE always devolves into some sort of anger or hurt feelings, and why everyone here has to realize that there's alot here bigger than their worldview...things like Galactus. The Doc ought not invest himself emotionally in this.
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Post by ken on Aug 3, 2005 10:52:33 GMT -5
I mean, you could have it so much better...with Franz Ferdinand.
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Aug 3, 2005 11:01:00 GMT -5
This is crazy talk, though, and RocDoc ought to take no offense to this, but the discussion that was just had is the essence of the Chrisfan Events Board. You presented a topic and viewpoint, shin and Chrisfan acknowledged your points and provided reasons for the disagreement. Tough shit, man, this is what happens here. This is one of the reasons why CE always devolves into some sort of anger or hurt feelings, and why everyone here has to realize that there's alot here bigger than their worldview...things like Galactus. The Doc ought not invest himself emotionally in this. He's right, you know. |
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Post by shin on Aug 3, 2005 11:03:37 GMT -5
It's funny. I remember I was expressing a similar sentiment as I have on an issue just like this with Pope Ratzi. I recall everyone was on the other side of the debate save RD.
People said that his age was the mitigating factor as to why we should have forgiven his involvement with Nazi crimes, which was correct in theory, but then again that 14 year old grew up to be Pope, so perhaps asking for a miracle out of a teenager isn't unfair...
Now it seems everyone's on the other side of the fence. I'm not entirely sure I see why. What was true then is true now eh?
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Post by chrisfan on Aug 3, 2005 11:09:00 GMT -5
It's funny. I remember I was expressing a similar sentiment as I have on an issue just like this with Pope Ratzi. I recall everyone was on the other side of the debate save RD. People said that his age was the mitigating factor as to why we should have forgiven his involvement with Nazi crimes, which was correct in theory, but then again that 14 year old grew up to be Pope, so perhaps asking for a miracle out of a teenager isn't unfair... Now it seems everyone's on the other side of the fence. I'm not entirely sure I see why. What was true then is true now eh? I mentioned this earlier in the discusion. The difference to me is in exactly WHAT the involvement was. Pope Benedict was "involved" in a way that WAS compulsory. All of the details of this case are not expressed in the article that Doc posted, but it APPEARS that is not the case here. In addition, to the best of my knowledge, The Pope never lied on immigration forms. |
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Post by RocDoc on Aug 3, 2005 15:35:13 GMT -5
Stratman, this wasn't Josias Kumpf but another case involving a Ukrainian named Osyp Firishchak and nowhere have I read that he was an SS operative, but possibly a member of the 'Nazi-supported' Ukrainian Auxiliary Police....'in Nazi-occupied Lviv, Poland, between October 1941 and October 1943
So the 'breath' I spent explaining myself, in your opinions boiled down to me simply saying 'forgive him because he's old or simply as a 'reward' for having been successfully in hiding all these years, as these last few posts here have distilled what I said over 8 or nine posts...? Wrongly.
The important aspects of MUCH of Europe THEN not recognizing the full intent of how Hitler was implementing his 'final solution'...the full insanity was only discovered AFTER the war. That the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police likely weren't privy to the every last detail of where those captured 'prisoners' they were assigned to round up were to be taken...or what in fact happened there. They didn't have all their conscripts 'take meetings' with Dr Mengele, or Gen'ls Goebbels or Himmler to get a feel for what this great corporate entity they've 'joined' was in fact doing to the people they were being told to deliver.
Why doesn't THAT notion limit their culpability when the fact that they weren'tgiven any choice isn't enough?
Taking to task even the terms 'in hiding' and 'fugitive'? Look, how many Osyp Firishchaks do you think there are in the world? 'Hiding' in Chicago in plain sight for 50+ years?
And I would lo-o-ove to hear the actual facts of what lying to the INS during their induction into the USA entails, what were the questions, exactly? And knowing them(which I now don't...I mean what DID they ask? 'Did you take part in atrocities, you stinkin' DP'? What?)in the first place, were they perfectly clear questions to a non-English-speaking DP from Eastern Europe and were GOOD translators assigned on demand to this polyglot mass that descended on them every day. How organized was this process in the late 40s/early 50s? The INS interview process TODAY is for shit. This from my personal 1st-hand experience, but knowing that they DO have a tougher-than-shit job.
I'll bet they were just incredibly fastidious then...well, they mis-spelled my Dad's name from his documents, which we're STILL stuck with, for one.
AND if they're pinning his deportation on these 'lies' in answer to their forms, in the event the War Crimes prosecution admits there honestly IS reasonable doubt that the man can be guilty of 'War Crimes' far beyond being born in the wrong place at the wrong time, well, why then can't they understand that all the Stoshes and Yoshes were saying 'No' to the very same question , not because they thought they did something understandably wrong back in their countries during wartime, but because they just took a fucking steamship for weeks or months from Germany or Australia or South America where they'd spent a couple of years after the WORST experiences of their lives, well, until their desires were set on fire (for a multitude of possible reasons) to be in America
You presented a topic and viewpoint, shin and Chrisfan acknowledged your points and provided reasons for the disagreement. Tough shit, man, this is what happens here.
Only a few of my stated points were touched upon, mainly the one repeated on this page..'Yeah Doc you think he deserves to be left alone just cos he's old..'
Pope Benedict was "involved" in a way that WAS compulsory. All of the details of this case are not expressed in the article that Doc posted, but it APPEARS that is not the case here.
And my point is that yes, you don't know the details yet (tho it seems a large part of your conclusion on this man is set), but then I wanted to further have people consider what was going on IN those countries at that time, the fucking dynamics of the Soviet Union already existing and all of the yet unconscripted SSR 'candidates', that nobody wanted a part of them!!!
They knew what was up, there. The Bolshevik revolution led to a bad taste in most everyones' mouths there. Ukrainian genocide. Lithuanian Genocide. Bad taste? D'ya think?
It was a proven commodity, a bad one.
And they didn't immediately know that Hitler wanted to flat out KILL every last Jew...
But the Jews' survival was more favorable if (and you could say it depended on) the USSR (and the other Allies of course, but they were busy in the West)) kept the Germans far far away from them by whatever means possible.
You had two superpowers and THEN you had these two other sides, these 2 groups of people who had lived together for 10 friggin CENTURIES in most cases...two groups who circumstances pitted one against the other.
THIS is the reason the the worst charges of wartime anti-Semitism are always against Eastern European countries who were the battle lines....
And WTF do you think that the 1939 signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Hitler and Stalin acknowledged? That the Soviets were using the guise of this war to annex another near-totally UNWILLING half of Europe, no matter what happened.
With huge knowing winks to one another.
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Post by rockysigman on Aug 3, 2005 15:42:09 GMT -5
Age plays a completely different role in this story than in that one Shin.
In regards to the Pope's Nazi involvement, the issue was how old he was at that time. And the concensus was, too young to be held fully responsible for it, considering the circumstances.
The issue here is not how old the man was during World War II, but how old he is now. Whether he is now too old to pay the price for what he did under the Nazi regime. During WWII, he was obviously an adult and therefore more responsible for his actions than the Pope was at that time.
With the Pope, it wasn't a matter of how fit he is NOW to pay for what he did then. It was a matter of if he was even responsible for what he did then. Clearly Kumpf was old enough at that time to be responsible for his actions, especially when it came to lying on his immigration papers.
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