Bush's Handling Of The War

[Thorngrub]

I was reading on the news about how Bush feels for the Mother who is camping out by his ranch, but that he disagrees with pulling out of Iraq, cuz it would "send the wrong signal to our enemies".

I was just wondering what people thought about that, especially sincere Christian folk.

The way I see it, is it's not about what "signal" we send to our "enemies".

It's about MAKING A DIRECT STATEMENT to them.

OH . . .and another thing. It's also about ATTEMPTING TO TRANSFORM THEM FROM "ENEMY" STATUS TO "NON-ENEMIES" . . .isn't that the "Christian Thing" - ?

[Thorngrub]

Or does the Bush Administration (whom I understand to be Christian) actually PREFER to RETAIN THEIR ENEMIES, for whatever reasons, at all costs?

Is not the Christian way all about Forgiveness?

Or is it not about that at all?

*just confused about the Bush Administration's logic, here*

[JACkory]

CASTAWAYS OPEN FORUM, locked down here at CE, now available in the deserted regions of JACkory's Insect Lounge.

[Thorngrub]

cool . . . .can I ask ya, JaC - - : Is that a "CE" board, or an "Open Forum", where anything & everything goes. . . ?

[Thorngrub]

Cuz obviously this here thread is a CE board, about a specific current event.
Unless no one cares.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

I care. Don't make me use the tears to prove it!

[Artknocker]

It's about MAKING A DIRECT STATEMENT to them.
What--that we're pussies?

Is not the Christian way all about Forgiveness?
Might as well also tell them: "Please attack us again! Maybe this time you can aim for the Empire State Building!" We have to "communicate" with them the only way they know how. It's kill or be killed. Yer livin' in a dream world, Thorn, and you desperately need to wake up.

[spencerny]

Who is 'them'? I don't recall to many of the people who took part/or were involved in some way with 9/11 being from Iraq. I recall a whole lot of terrorists with Saudi, Egyptian and various other mid-east country nationalities being involved with 9/11.

[chrisfan]

Thorn, I'm really confused about one key element of your post. In this one, like many others, you emphasize the tenents of Christianity, and how you see them as being in conflict with Bush's policy. Putting aside for a moment that I think you're misrepresenting those tenents, and applying them incorrectly, I have to ask ... do you believe that Bush's Christian faith SHOULD be a guiding force in his policy making decisions? Because I may be confusing you for someone else, but I thought you'd criticized him in the past for doing so. I was a bit surprised at the turn around.

[Thorngrub]

That's a good question, chrisfan. A tricky one too, I might add. I'm not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but I'll try. I guess my answer is a mixed one. First off, yes, I think AnYone of AnY faith should definitely implement every aspect of their Faith 100%, no compromises. Otherwise, why invest in it at all, in the first place? Religious conviction and Faith like that are not just "wallpaper" or plumbing; they represent serious core beliefs on how to live THIS life for the betterment of all, and to secure a nice spot in the afterlife. But I don't believe Religion should enter into politics, and I sense that is the tricky nature of your question.

In essence, I believe that someone can be 100% devoted as a true Christian, and be President, and run their administration according to Christian tenets 100%, while still never crossing that line of imposing said Faith on others. If a true Christian man were in office (one that truly believed with all his heart and mind and soul in the simple teachings of Christ - that Forgiveness is essential, that Trust in God is essential, that turning the other cheek is not just some "technical rule no longer applicable" (rather, it is a genuine and bonafide Workable Ethic which IF implemented, results in pragmatic and tangible benefits) - if such a true Christian WERE in office, I feel that every action he dictated, every order he gave, so long as they were guided by his fundamental Christian tenets, would result (with God truly by his side) in purely beneficial long term outcomes, quite measurable in our economy and everyday concerns. And I believe that such a man could still continue to keep a distinct and well-drawn line between State and Church.

So YES, Bush's Christian faith SHOULD be a guiding force. . .the trick is, his faith has to be GENUINE. Now I'm not saying he isn't TRYING to genuinely have faith, not at all. It goes back to the question of having good intentions, but not being cut out for the job. That is, right there, squarely & accurately, the only final assessment that makes any sense about Bush. I KNOW he "means well", but honey, meaning well ain't enuff to cut it, not in the job of President of the United States of America. What we need in there is a true man of vision, of solid Christian Faith that is honed to a razor's edge (Bush ain't got that sweetie), and to truly let the banner of Christian virtues unfurl, under this brave blue American sky, and with God TRULY on our side, we can show these cowardly terrorist vermin what the OPPOSITE of hypocrisy really is.

For I find the terrorists to be just as much HYPOCRITES as the current Bush administration.

They are ALL powermongers, who have replaced their true God with $$$ + Power.

Once we begin the process of sincerely trying to replace $$ + Power with a true faith in God, and follow through with all His teachings - -so long as we earnestly live by them, I think those simple teachings of Christ would yield a tremendously powerful legacy of goodwill on earth, for endless generations to come.

Again: I'm not even a "Christian" and I believe this. So maybe I *am* a Christian, I don't know. I am who I am.

[chrisfan]

thorny said:

In essence, I believe that someone can be 100% devoted as a true Christian, and be President, and run their administration according to Christian tenets 100%, while still never crossing that line of imposing said Faith on others.

Help me to understand how you see this as getting done. See, one of the core tenents of the Christian faith is a call to spread it to others. We're called to spread the nets and be fisherman for others to follow Christ as well. How do you follow that, without crossing the line of imposing it on others?

One more question since I'm still befuddled by your understanding of Christianity -- you seem quite firm in your belief that the only way to be a good Christian is to remain steadfast in following the rules 100% of the time - no room for error or weakness. If this is in fact the case, what's the point of forgiveness? Don't forget that we're told to forgive others so that God can forgive us. Why would we need God's forgiveness and grace if we do nothing wrong?

[Thorngrub]

One of the core tenets of YOUR christian faith is to spread it like a virus to others. Spread the nets, sure. But let all the unsuspecting fish get caught up into your nets on they own, dig? In other words, a real Christian is not called onto to FORCE their views upon others, and why should they, especially considering their Way may, in fact, be the true way? I.E, the others will come around, eventually. And if they don't, well I guess they just go to Hell huh.

Does your particular branch of Christianity deal with your FAILURE to get others to step into line with you? Is there any punishment for that, or do you get quota points taken away?

I thought it was pretty clear cut: you're either saved, hence a Christian and going to heaven, or you're not, hence a sinner and going to Hell.

So chrisfan, they way you follow Christ without crossing the line of imposing it on others, is to merely SET AN EXAMPLE, and quietly but confidently realize that those with the eyes to see, and with the ears to hear, will watch and listen and eventually make their own decision to follow Christ.

You don't really believe that Christ\God\etc WANTS people who are FORCED into "believing" in them, do ya? See, it's the old "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" thing. I'll bet your Christ knows about that one.

[Thorngrub]

as for your question "One more question since I'm still befuddled by your understanding of Christianity -- you seem quite firm in your belief that the only way to be a good Christian is to remain steadfast in following the rules 100% of the time - no room for error or weakness. If this is in fact the case, what's the point of forgiveness? Don't forget that we're told to forgive others so that God can forgive us. Why would we need God's forgiveness and grace if we do nothing wrong? ",

I think I made myself pretty clear before. I'm not going to fall into your elusive, slipknot semantic traps. Even God - - haha, ESPECIALLY God, and subsequently Christ, and your entire Christian Faith - - knows as well as anyone that rigidly following rules is not the answer. You could learn a bit about flexibility; and you shouldn't have to question why you need God's forgiveness and grace if you do nothing wrong.

He works in myserious ways, remember.

[chrisfan]

Obviously we misunderstood each other on the notion of forcing your faith on others. I thought that by that, you meant teaching non-believers about it at all. I guess I was wrong in thinking that. As long as we're cool in recognizing that Christians are called to spread the word to others, and you're okay with a Christian office holder doing so, then we have no disagreement there. But just to clarify - Christians are not just called to set a good example, and hope others will figure out that the good example is because they're Christians. They're called to expose others to the WORD of God. That's not an example - that's a teaching. You'e right - whether or not others accept it is totally up to them. But it's still our job to bring that opportunity to them both through example and teaching.

[Thorngrub]

ok, so I "SEEM" to be "firm in my belief that following the rules 100% of the time, with no room for error or weakness, is what I'm espousing. Well things ain't what they seem, are they now.

I'm not being obtuse - -I'm being plain and direct. I can't blame you for not understanding me . . . and I don't think I could get you to, no matter how hard I tried.

Leave it said that I won't forget that we're told to forgive others so that God can fogive us: there's a huge difference between being COMMANDED TO DO SO AT ALL COSTS, with a quota no less, and the idea merely being a good one to roughly follow, more or less, should the opportunity present itself.

Let God do God's work, and let his sheep follow Him. If some sheep can get some others to join in, all the better. If not, don't sweat it honey. God'll take care of the rest.