Which one are you?

[Nepenthe]

thorny said:

shin said:

So are you ever going to offer your explanation as to where humans came from outside of a simplistic and evasive "God created them"?

I can put forth a proposition (one that I was spurred on towards thinking from this very thread):

My proposition is this. (For lack of a better term with which to refer to our "creator(s)", I will refer to that concept with the term THE GODS THEMSELVES. May sound corny or inappropriate to you, but bear with me)

THE GODS THEMSELVES may have "set up" our Universe, our "Reality" for the express purpose of *momentarily escaping THEIR REALITY*.

OUR REALITY may in fact be nothing more than a sort of "Cosmic Amusement Ride", such as the kind you find at Disney World or Six Flags Over Georgia. It is my (current) belief that WE ARE "THE GODS THEMSELVES". And that this "RIDE" they set up for themselves achieves the heart of its very purpose by literally taking THE GODS THEMSELVES on a wild trip (which WE call "Life") in order that they may experience a new facet of perception.

This theory explains nearly every anomalistic question we often find ourselves incorrectly asking, such as "who created the creators then?", because concepts such as "creation" may have no relevance outside this realm we have found ourselves in.

IF WHAT I HAVE SUGGESTED HERE IS TRUE, then what that means is that EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US HERE is but AN ASPECT of that which I have referred to as THE GODS THEMSELVES.

It means WE ARE THE GODS THEMSELVES, only due to the nature of this "cosmic amusement ride" They (we) willingly sacrifice their own Memories of having BEEN "The Gods Themselves". When their "trip" is done (that one which begins with birth here in our realm and ends with death), they then revert to their Original State- - that of ETERNITY.

This theory actually does fill in most of the gaping holes in our awareness of Life, the Universe, and Everything.


Yet it is only a theory - - the TRICK becomes, HOW do we ESTABLISH whether or not this particular theory is CORRECT or not?

Ah, there lies the question. The answer? Through Faith. *OR* (As a certain fictional detective would have it), via the surety of focused speculation guided by logic (which parallels faith).

That is what I believe - - how is that for a proposed answer to the question you directed at Tuatha, shin?

Thorn, this lines up very similar to with what I believe as well. BUT I don't think we are Gods in the flesh, ONLY ONE was ever God in the flesh.

The three world ages can indeed be found in the Bible. The first being the "fall" in the book of Job (1/3 of the Angels and Satan which led to the BIG BANG), as well as other places in the Bible. The second EARTH age being our present one and the"fall" or "holy seduced" in the book of Genesis, in the garden, and can be found in other places as well. Also the entire cause of Noah's flood "when they came down and took wives upon the earth" in order to corrupt a seedline and humanity. The third Earth age age being the future age and one still coming can be found in the book of 2 Peter and of course all over the New Testament.

What is the real meaning of "being born again?" What exactly was being stated? Look at the word "Again" in the orinigal manuscripts and this becomes a very interesting word in the Greek used in this particular part in John 3 when Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus: Again = From Above.

Was the "being born again" actually just going down to the local church and gettin baptised? Or was it being born through the womb? what is in the womb? What does a baby float in? Of course I believe there is a double meaning.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

[Nepenthe]

And there were some that did refuse to be born through the womb.......they are the fallen ones that came down and took wives.

[Nepenthe]

One more thing that is very interesting. The meaning of the word Foundation, in the Hebrew the Katabole. Used in these verses:

Matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (KJV)

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (KJV)

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (KJV)

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. (KJV)

1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (KJV)

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (KJV)


2602 katabole (kat-ab-ol-ay');
from 2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:
KJV-- conceive, foundation.
2598 kataballo (kat-ab-al'-lo);
from 2596 and 906; to throw down:
KJV-- cast down, lay.
2596 kata (kat-ah');
a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive case, dative case or accusative case] with which it is joined):
KJV-- about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [daily-], down, every, (+far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from ... to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), ... by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.
906 ballo (bal'-lo);
a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):
KJV-- arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare 4496.
(Strong's)

[Nepenthe]

And for the reference to the word "Again" Jesus telling Nicodemus One must be born again.

You can find this in a strong concordance in the index and it refers you to #509 in the Greek dictionary and the meaning is "from above".

[shin]

I ordered my damn ham and cheese sandwich hours ago and you now you give me shit pie with whipped cream on top? Get back in the kitchen and get me what I ordered.

[kmc]

I hope this thread is still around when trace is unbanned. Then we can see some real sparks.

[Nepenthe]

Something I just thought of to add to my post about being born again (from above) and these verses:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I can't help but think of the terms we use today concerning the birth of a child. "Her WATER has broken"

[Nepenthe]

And in a spiritual sense....... to take of the living water....

[strat-0]

Trace is not banned.

[kmc]

Ignore me, strat-0. I am riding on a good day and a half without sleep.

[JACkory]

kenholzman said:

Who created the creators?

Nice, simple, direct question for ya Thorny. I'd like a similarly simple, direct, answer.

And for the religious folks here: Who created God? As JAC noted, something can't come from nothing, and if you've postulated this enormous "something" out there which created the universe, then you've got to explain where she came from as well.

Come on, Ken. You've read Thomas Aquinas (probably a LOT more of it than I have, actually). I'm sure you're well aware of the concept of a "Prime Mover".
The Prime Mover is not subject to origin because the Prime Mover has always been, there has never been a time when the Prime Mover WASN'T. No, it's not something I or anyone else can wrap their heads around, and so that is why it must be accepted on faith. But it is perfectly logical.

[shin]

kmc said:

Ignore me, strat-0. I am riding on a good day and a half without sleep.

Half Life 2? Or big sexin'?

[JACkory]

ritalinpants said:

Be cool, and don't let what a bunch of us on the web think let you get bothered about your own beliefs. They're your life. I was wondering what happened to your strident espousal of the Jesus as of late....

Nah..I'm not bothered by conflicting viewpoints or other belief-systems. I respect 'em...shows that people are thinking about something other than where the next meal is coming from and when the next Sigur Ros album is coming out...

As for the absence of a "strident espousal of Jesus"...
I figure everyone here is by now well aware that I love the Lord. The internet is not an ideal place for the kind of evangelism I believe is required to introduce people to Christ and Christianity. Maybe it is, but in my experience I've found more hinderances than advantages, though I'm not up to going into them in detail.
Besides, this is an ongoing process, and I am learning as I go along (Paul refers to this as "working out one's salvation", the wording of which, I admit, is somewhat confusing, but alas, I think I understand where he was coming from). And it's not easy, at least it hasn't been for me.
I think too many Christians try to learn the lessons of the Bible the same way they studied history in school...it's all so much rote memorization that the ideas and concepts sometimes get lost in the process. I don't want to be that kind of Christian. I want to be the kind who strives to apply and/or experience the gifts of the Spirit (love, peace, patience, joy, goodness, faithfulness, kindness, gentleness & self-control) to the fullest of what these concepts entail. I want to be compassionate in the grandest sense...
...And yet, I find that I still struggle with the things that prevent me from doing just that...
The Bible explains why that is and it also tells me that it will only be overcome by grace, the gift of God to those who believe.
But the most reassuring thing in the Bible is the revelation of God as MERCIFUL and LOVING. His mercy endureth forever is a phrase that is repeated no less than 26 times in the 136th Psalm...that is my hope, not anything I might could do or even believe.

I think we're all in need of that mercy. Human beings are just too fucked up as a general rule to be expected to "get it right" 100% of the time.

And I've slowly been coming to the point where I have to wonder if "believers" have brought their own interpretations and perceptions into what the Bible actually says that the term "Christian" has been irrepairably tarnished in the eyes of the world. Those nuts from Topeka and their military funeral demonstrations...if that's being a "Christian" I don't know why anyone would want to look into being one. With good reason people have learned to be suspicious of the "wolves in sheep's clothing" who put God in a box by limiting Him to THEIR understanding of what the Bible says, contrary to what it actually DOES have to say about forgiveness, mercy and the lovingkindness of God.
I revere the Bible as the written word of God and I believe that an understanding of it is beneficial in many, many ways, the most paramount being the plan of salvation that runs through Genesis to Revelation...But I also think that it's a mistake to think that God can be sandwiched between the covers of any book. He is just so much more than what we can ever conceive of Him being, even with the wisdom found in the Bible, and so I don't take too kindly to folks who use the Good Book to illuminate their pointing fingers. Does that make sense?

Had thought I would have more to say and that I would have said it more coherently after pondering it considerably today, but alas, I am already weary of gazing into the computer monitor. Sorry.
Perhaps I can elaborate further in the future if requested...

[RocDoc]

Pardon me for saying so Layla, but I feel the necessity to question the comment "wisdom is infinite". The reason I say this is because in the Annals Of Human Concepts Which Will Be Found Out In Retrospect To Have Been In Error, it is my humble opinion that the concept of "infinity" is one such myth.

Wisdom cannot be infinite because it would only get stale. Think of it in the manner of Goldilocks & The Three Bears: One bowl of porridge was too cold, one was too hot, but one was just right. THAT is wisdom, right there. It achieves optimum efficiency only by being just so; neither too much, nor too little. BUt right on the money. That is not "infinite"; that is balance.

A ring describes "endlessness", but not necessarily infinity. There is a difference. One concept goes around and around endlessly repeating a predestined course (which is not "infinite" per se; rather, just the endless repetition of one thing); the other is purely imaginary, imo (infinity).

I believe that finity is a far more valid concept than infinity. And I believe infinity to be the crutch which has leached out all the muscular power from our intellects. (We now depend on this concept as if it were very real. We seldom question the validity of it, for instance. And so we're doomed to spin in endless cycles . . .treading the waters of ignorance, and getting nowhere. Ironic, huh?)


There's a concept that I could swear I first came upon a lo-o-ong time ago in Calculus called 'asymptotes' where some number (or in a Cartesian representation, an axis) was being approached...and approached...and approached...but NEVER reached.

And...as (I think) I correctly recall, this was one of the fundamental concepts to Calculus which goes toward using 'the infinite' in it's many many approaches to formulating the unformulateable...

So this:
_{Think of it in the manner of Goldilocks & The Three Bears: One bowl of porridge was too cold, one was too hot, but one was just right. THAT is wisdom, right there. It achieves optimum efficiency only by being just so; neither too much, nor too little. BUt right on the money. That is not "infinite"; that is balance.}
...becomes extremely debateable even within the context of a fairy tale and the extreme variability of what temperature to anyone's taste would constitute 'just right'.....something can always approach just right, but someone else invariably is going to have an opinion that some sorta tweak is needed.
'Balance' as a concept is finite in gravity-bound systems while comparing mass, only.
In all other systems, it will be debateable and questionable...the intellectual equivalent of an asymptote.

_{...sorry, but I didn't have time to google or 'wikipedia' the word so pleeeease pick away at it if you must, but the concept the way I laid it out here regarding thorn's 'just right' estimation of balance knocking 'infinity onto its heels, is essentially correct.}

[shin]

Oh I get it now. Humans just fell out of the sky because God said so. We should put that in science textbooks because of the translation of a few Hebrew words. So that's my ham and cheese sandwich, huh. This country is totally on track right now.

Probably shoulda asked for the reuben.