Which one are you?

[Mary]

jackory said:

Although I do disagree with the "non-rational" part.

Well, just in case this was less than clear....

By "non-rational" I absolutely do not mean "irrational". The latter, I take to mean something which is explicitly contrary to reason. Non-rational, instead, is simply something in which reason plays no part, but it does not necessarily offend against reason. So, it's irrational to insist that 2+2 is 5, but it's simply non-rational to insist that blue is the prettiest color - there are no rational benchmarks against which to judge and rank the colors. It's a matter of pure subjective taste, which isn't irrational, it's just got nothing at all to do with rationality.

From my perspective, faith is non-rational. It's potentially irrational if one insists on maintaining faith in something which has been pointedly disproven by reason (such as that the earth is the center of the universe), but in the case of faith in god, no such disproof has been (or, I think, could be) offered. Ultimately, I just think faith and reason are radically distinct - not antithetical, just distinct.

What's interesting about this is that it's a position shared by devout believers and radical skeptics. I talked about this a little on one of the old religion boards here - the tradition of theological fideism, which holds that none of the truths of religion can actually be defended on the grounds of reason, so one must have faith instead. Usually the fideists go on to claim that human reason is such a frail, helpless, and weak faculty that it's actually unable to discern much of anything at all about the world around it, thus men are compelled to faith by the inadequacy of reason. If they wish to avoid tumbling into a terrible skepticism and uncertainty about the world, they have to seek faith. That's the fideist position, and it's the version of religious faith that makes the most sense to me.

Cheers,
M

[Dr. Drum]

Believing in God isn't like assenting to the obvious fact that 2+2 is 4. It involves some kind of deeper spiritual or emotional… attachment. Arguments for and against God's existence are just so much after-the-fact self-justification, for both the theist and the atheist. It's a pointless exercise, imho.

No doubt this is true but the same principles also hold for matters of artistic perception and taste and yet we’re never going to stop arguing over the relative merits of Beatles v. Stones or how it is that some people just cannot see that the Doors truly do blow goats.

[phil]

Hum ... Ritualistic animal sacrifices ?

Let's not go there ... !!

[Thorngrub]

rocdoc said:

In Chicago everybody pays 2 bucks and rides the El downtown and goes to see the sights.
That's the El.
BFD.

Hmmm, Roc: "asymptotes" - - - > I'm unfamiliar with the word, but it sounds as if, from what you described, that its a word used to showcase the theory that if you cut the distance in half each time you approach a wall, you will theoretically never get there. A sort of "infinite regression", it seems. Interesting


That's pretty much the idea...the graphic representation is a half parabola ( I know there's a word for it but can't recall...hyperbola perhaps?) where the curve is getting closer and closer to one of the axes but never quite gets there. It honestly IS quite an interesting concept.

And to me it seems to represent the difficulties with achieving your 'balance' in all these abstract areas (like wisdom) where you were hoping to apply it.

Is there any math in your educational background?

Sure there was, RocDoc. But not to any inordinate degree; for instance, I didn't get too deeply into calculus or beyond. However, I did study the basics: Algebra; Algebra II; Triginometry, and get this: I received a 100%, A+ Average in Geometry (I was rather proud of that feat). So, yeah, some mathematics are 2nd nature to me, for instance, Geometry is impossible for me to not understand.

But in the greater scheme of things . . .my education in mathematics is pretty limited.

[phil]

I remember my first day in high school
when the teacher wrote A+B=C on the blackboard
and I asked, "Hé! Were are the numbers ?"
and he answered there was no need for numbers...

I knew that it would be a lonnnnng year for me !!


and then there was the latin class... and the greek class ...

[RocDoc]

Someone else with a more recent math background can correct me (Bowiglou?), but it seemed to me that Calculus was the overarching framework within which all the other Geometries and the Trigs and Algebras and such are hung and integrated to such a degree that Calculus becomes another animal, this huge organizing principle of related rates (rates at which ANYthing happens...gravity, acceleration...)that allows a rocket to get propelled toward Mars.

And allows it to fucking LAND there!!

Incredible....as is the Quantum mechanics and theoretical physics that Strat mentioned.

[Mary]

docdrum said:

Believing in God isn't like assenting to the obvious fact that 2+2 is 4. It involves some kind of deeper spiritual or emotional… attachment. Arguments for and against God's existence are just so much after-the-fact self-justification, for both the theist and the atheist. It's a pointless exercise, imho.

No doubt this is true but the same principles also hold for matters of artistic perception and taste and yet we’re never going to stop arguing over the relative merits of Beatles v. Stones or how it is that some people just cannot see that the Doors truly do blow goats.

Nonsense - it's obviously IRRATIONAL to think that the Doors are any good

er, but seriously...

i didn't mean to suggest there's no point in discussing anything that can't be rationally resolved. come to think of it, those are probably my favorite topics to discuss! it's just that the god debate almost invariably provokes so much self-righteousness and animosity to no conceivable end, and it always leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. it seems like it devolves into the worst kind of intellectual masturbation.

Cheers,
M

[Mary]

as far as math goes...

...my dad is a mathematician. i inherited exactly NONE of his math genius, though

weird thing is, though, i got my ass kicked by math on a consistent basis throughout high school, and then i took calculus my senior year, and it suddenly all made sense. i totally rocked calculus.

alas, though, despite my one year of math glory, the rest of math left such a horrendous taste in my mouth that i avoided ever taking a math class in college. three years into college i had to take statistics for my major, and i was petrified, since i hadn't even looked at a calculator since high school. but that class was a joke (note to bowiglou: i'm NOT saying stats is a joke - that was just a ridicuously elementary class) and i think i ended up with, like, a 102 average or something. that was my final encounter with math... haven't spent a minute thinking about the subject since, except when i'm really drunk and i start integrating

i'm ridiculously intimidated by people who are good at math. i think they exist in a separate realm of genius-ness from the rest of us...

Cheers,
M

[luke]

Couldn't agree more with math. In college, I took remedial math twice and hundred level math THREE times before I got through it. Other than that, just took a statistics class, which I fucking aced. Statistics aren't as bad, at least not at the most basic level, because there's a REASON behind them. It's more than just some puzzle of numbers and weird looking Greek shit.

On the GRE, I got around a 600 on my verbal, around a 5 on my essay portion, but a goddamn 240 or something so so so sad and pathetic on the math.

[Nepenthe]

I do great in math, its those x's and y's that get me. LOL Many times I find myself being able to find answers to the regular equations on my own, but NOT in the way you are suppose to do them, this baffles me. I had a teacher tell me that it has something to do with the way a person's brain works and their critical thinking skills. Unfortunately this doesn't always work all the time, only about 1/4 and some teachers won't accept the work done this way.

I actually do equations much better when they are applied to real life. i.e. rocket speed/height, propulsion ect..

Also I got straight A's in Science throughout High school. Strange....usually those that do well in Science aren't they usually really good in math?

Luckily I have a Mathematician right here at home. My god he took College Algebra I, Calculus I - III, Trig, Modern Algebra, Differential Equations, not too mention Business Finance, Business Statistics, Accounting I & II. And get this, he took Micro and Macro Economics at the SAME time which had to be approved first.

Makes me want to puke.

[phil]

Decontaminating our children

by Ken Ham, president, AiG–USA

First published in
Answers Update–USA
December 2004

Whether it’s in America, a Third World country or wherever children receive some formal education, I would be prepared to say that young people have heard plenty about evolution. Quite often, it comes in the form of “dinosaurs and millions of years.”

AiG’s burden to reach children around the world with the truth of God’s Word (especially the gospel message) prompted us to produce a very special new two-disc DVD set featuring Buddy Davis and me. It’s entitled Dinosaurs, Genesis and the Gospel.

But this is no ordinary production—it’s not just one to “watch,” but one to “experience.”

Each time Buddy and I have conducted one of our many special school assembly programs for grades K–6, our hearts have been burdened as we watch the response to the following questions that I ask the young people (many times numbering into the thousands):

“Put your hands up if you’ve heard of the word evolution.” Almost every hand goes up.

“Put up your hands if you’ve heard that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago.” Almost every hand goes up.

“And put your hands up if you’ve heard people evolved from apelike creatures.” Almost every hand goes up.

For Christians who say that “evolution” or “millions of years” are just side issues, they need to be present at these children’s programs so that they can see the thousands of hands go up. The response of these precious children demonstrates the incredibly effective job the “world” has done in brainwashing generations of young people with false, faith-shattering ideas that have caused so many to reject the Bible (and the gospel message!) as true.

No wonder statistics in the USA reveal that for young people who go to church, somewhere between 70–90% abandon the church after they graduate from high school.

AiG is dedicated to “decontaminating” these students and teaching them from a young age to know they can wholeheartedly believe God’s Word beginning in Genesis—and we’re committed to equipping them to defend it.

We’ve been told by so many thankful parents that their children will never forget the key question we teach them to ask—“Were you there?” (based on Job 38:4)—when they hear someone teach “millions of years.”

On stage, when Buddy takes out a realistic-looking dinosaur or plastic lizard, the children never forget the words of Job 41 concerning a fire-breathing dragon that lived at the time of Job.

As Buddy sings his toe-tapping song “Billions of Dead Things” and other catchy tunes, the children join in and learn scientific and biblical concepts they will always remember. (And there have been many parents in attendance who have admitted that they learned a tremendous amount of faith-building information by being at these children’s programs.)

As a special teaching tool in our new DVD, Buddy’s dog Casey will often bark, which is our way of alerting the children that an important piece of information is coming up that needs to be remembered.

With special effects added by our talented video team, we believe this new release from AiG will go a long way in “decontaminating” our evolutionary-brainwashed young people. We want them to know that they can trust the Bible … and thus trust the saving power of the gospel that is the central message of God’s Holy Word.

It’s an experience you and your children (or grandchildren) will never forget (suggested ages 4–10, although teens and adults will probably enjoy the DVD, too).