|
|
Post by strat-0 on May 12, 2006 19:55:21 GMT -5
Going back to the issue at hand for a moment (and I can't find the post I was going to reference now - imagine that!), there seems to be some confusing of Chrisfan's having a conservative viewpoint with her moderating. While Rocky's point about nose punching is well taken, it still should be said that after the first couple of days, there has been really no active moderating (deleted posts or threads) at CE until this last brouhaha. I have done a small amount where appropriate (I hope), but not generally at CE. It just hasn't been necessary, IMO.
We can all pat ourselves on the back for that, or you can say I haven't done an adequate job - whatever.
I've said it before, but with a legacy that goes back to the Rolling Stone magazine, we are naturally going to be left-heavy in the gene pool. I thought it might level the playing field a little to have a conservative moderate CE, but I guess I was wrong, and I did a disservice to Chrisfan. I think with Maarts in place as mod, it might actually help her position. I want to thank her for her efforts, contributions, and help. Perhaps she will continue to express her opinions at CE, though she might take a powder like many of the other more conservative people have.
Where I may differ with Chrisfan is in that, going back to the RS legacy, I am extremely loathe to intervene in peoples' expressions, even when they may be inappropriate. Trying to find the right balance is very difficult indeed. Rotsa ruck, Maarts, but I expect you probably won't find much to do!
|
|
|
|
Post by Kensterberg on May 12, 2006 20:05:37 GMT -5
So is maarts now the CE moderator?
If so, great. If not (or when he gets tired of it), I'd do it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Galactus on May 12, 2006 20:20:37 GMT -5
We could have two.
|
|
|
|
Post by Galactus on May 12, 2006 20:24:20 GMT -5
...or three even, if chrisfan wants to keep it. 2 of 3 mods have to agree before deleting something. I can't argue with that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kensterberg on May 12, 2006 20:41:42 GMT -5
I'd be happy to have multiple mods at CE, but I don't like the idea of mods having to agree about what to delete/edit, etc. The simple reason for this is time. With maarts and I literally on opposite sides of the planet, there are obviously issues with being on the boards anywhere near the same time. And if something is offensive enough to merit moderating, then we'd want it acted on as quickly as possible, right?
That's where having mult. mods can really pay off, IME.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kensterberg on May 12, 2006 20:45:58 GMT -5
And BTW, most of you guys know by now that a bunch of us used to have special "moderator-like super powers" over at RS.com, right? Ferdman had drafted more than a handful of long-time posters to help with keeping down on the trolling, etc. So when you'd see things all gone to hell, and then a half hour later it was all gone, it was often one of these senior posters, trying to do a little bit for the betterment of the boards.
Anyway, I think that maarts and I would be able to cover CE fine, if that's what you guys want. I can promise (at least on my part) that there'll be no partisanship, just an effort to keep things from going too far overboard.
|
|
|
|
Post by strat-0 on May 12, 2006 21:18:15 GMT -5
Ken, you just totally nullified the whole post I was working on! Thanks a lot!
It's Maarts and Ken as moderators at CE.
ANY OBJECTIONS?[/i]
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisfan on May 12, 2006 22:05:52 GMT -5
Where I may differ with Chrisfan is in that, going back to the RS legacy, I am extremely loathe to intervene in peoples' expressions, even when they may be inappropriate. Trying to find the right balance is very difficult indeed. Rotsa ruck, Maarts, but I expect you probably won't find much to do! I just want to clarify on this a bit. To be honest Strat-o, based on discussions we've had, I think that you are stating this right, but without the background of those discussions, it may not be viewed in such a way by others. I don't think that there should be much intervening at all due to people's expressions. Where I do think there needs to be a BIT of intervening is where those expressions are proving to be so disruptive that they're driving other people away. Several people keep on commenting on the dismay they feel over the number of people who've disappeared. I don't think that a single reason can be given for every person who has gone away, quit particiipating on some threads, etc. But I'm willing to bet that there are more that have gotten tired of the disruptive BS than anything else. When a person determines that posting just doesn't fit into his/her life anymore, due to a job change, marriage, etc, it sucks for the rest of us, but it's understandable. But when people decide not to participate anymore because of the atmosphere maintained around here, I think that's a shame, and I think it COULD be prevented. |
|
|
|
Post by kmc on May 13, 2006 7:06:49 GMT -5
Luke, you're spot on. But Chrisfan has always been able to back up her viewpoints pretty well but it's hard to do it all by yourself. Thing though is that every time when you are being told how moronic you are by supporting certain political views it's like being bludgeoned with a leg of lamb. You get tired of it. Kenny, you make a lot of sense to me most of the time but I do absolutely not agree with your assessment that there's no difference between attacking the view or the man. See, I challenge your view that you post here and not call you a fuckwit for saying that right here. That's the difference. And that's fair, maarts. I have yet to see how to differentiate the bigotry from the bigot. As I said before, ideas don't exist in a vacuum; people have to hold these ideas for them to get any kind of lipservice at all. People dislike other people for the ideas they hold. This, I think, is natural, and in a place like CE, where all that is discussed is "ideas" (I use that term loosely), those ideas become the facet that the poster presents to the world. It isn't the whole person. But it's what we get for using a web forum, And when you get a bunch of argumentative, strong-willed people on a web board discussing poliitics, it's no wonder this happened. But the problem with CE is not that there are personal attacks based on exceedingly contentious ideas; it's the fact that people use those ideas to play out their now completely unrelated dislike for one another. Take the RocDoc/shin fights. They have nothing to do with politics at this point. Those two just dislike each other. It might have once been a dislike fueled by political ideas, but it is clearly beyond that, and those two are just one example of what passes for "political dispute" at Current Events. So yeah, we can sit here and rehash the same shit we've said in this place for awhile, about respect, about diversity, whatever. This is politics, and we have too much history. Personal attacks happen, and they are either vicious attacks (like thorn's attack on Chrisfan a few weeks back) or underhanded little jibes that irk the living shit out of whoever is in the opposite end (like Chrisfan calling Rocky "Captain"). I am not being a pessimist, but let's accept that everyone who participates there helped create the current atmosphere, that people are past casual disagreement, and that maarts or Holzman or whoever can't really fix this because it isn't something we can "fix" without developing a healhy regard for one another. |
|
|
|
Post by kmc on May 13, 2006 7:20:49 GMT -5
And I am gonna say, it gets pretty fucking tiring hearing this whole Chrisfan as victim charade some of us seem to be living. Chrisfan is now a conservative playing in a liberal landscape. She's under-represented. But this was not by design. You can say that the liberals on the board drove everyone away. That would be an easy and fallacious misrepresentation of facts. Might we consider the following?
1) Stratman. Melon, RocDoc, Tuatha, and whoever else you want to point out simply got tired of doing the same tired schtick on a web board, and it was just their time to quit? While we're at it, look at this list of names there. Those were all highly contentious people. So they got smart and dettached first. Good for them.
2) Maybe they got tired of having their asses handed to them, or got tired of defending an archaic ideology.
3) Maybe they have real world issues that keep them away from CE.
4) Fuck, maybe they just decided to go outside.
The fact is, when it is time for you to go, you go. I went away for a while. When I was ready to come back, I did. It wasn't Chrisfan's fault. Maybe everyone needs a break?
I suggest closing down CE for six months. I see nothing else fixing the current situation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Galactus on May 13, 2006 8:36:46 GMT -5
Of those listed Stratman, Melon, Rocodoc, and Tuatha...they all very rarely even agreed with each. All very ends of the conservatism. Whereas I disagree with some of the details of what Shin or Ken or Rocky say we're all pretty much on thge same page. I completely understand it's hard to gain much ground in that atmosphere and that can be really frustrating. In fact it's the exact opposite of the situation back on the old boards. The left was almost immdeiately shut down by the regulars on the right, granted there were still more lefties but most of them only came in ocastionally,but the regulars were dominated by the right. Some of us stuck around, some of us didn't. That's the way it goes. The difference here is that the people leaving aren't being replaced with new voices. Ken's right, it would be easy but mostly false to blame that on some leftist conspiracy rather the natural cycles of message boards. Rocdoc I can buy, he left becuase of us, by the fact he still posts here just not on CE very often. The others left the boards entirely and everybody or nobody gets to share the blame in that. If Chrisfan decides she wants to leave CE I wouldn't blame her but she should admit at least it's because she's tired of swimming upstream instead of blaming it on us.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisfan on May 13, 2006 9:24:17 GMT -5
Let's set the record straight here. I am not a victim of jack, and no one, to the best of my knowledge, is trying to pretend that I am. I simply think that the atmosphere around here has changed a great deal, and is no longer as enjoyable as it once was. If it is still enjoyable for some, then it should stay exatly as it is. On the other hand, if peple WANT differing viewpoints around here, then something needs to change. Because right now, there's essentially one train of thought. That train, by the way, is not a liberal or conservative view.
People keep talking about the conservative views that have gone away - Stratman, Melon, Rocdoc, Trutha ... and I'd add Jac. Am I the ony one who has noticed the drastic drop off in participation (on the CE threads) from liberal minded people such as Mary, JLLM and Drum? Given the drop off on BOTH sides, it seems to me the problem is the tone - not the views being expressed.
Kenny, although I don't agree completely, I can understand where you're coming from in saying you can't separate the bigoted views from the bigot. But when talking about bigotry, we're talking about extreme views. I don't think that same thing can be applied to all disagreements. Different views on welfare, security, abortion, the environment, etc are not necessarily extreme. When someone disagrees with your persepctive, that is not necessarily hatred of your view - it's simply a different view. So when views differ on such issues, I don't think there is any justification that exsists for attacking the person and not the viewpoint.
It's an example I've used before, but that is because it works. I have a hard time coming up with any political issue that Mary and I agree on. But as a person, I really really like Mary. She and I will most likely NEVER agree on what level of government sponsored welfare is appropriate. But just because we don't agree on that (or other) subjects is absolutely no reason for me to hate, or even dislike her. Honestly, I think it's a bit arrogant to justify dislike or hatred ofa person because of differing views.
What exactly is so wrong with agreeing to disagree? What exactly is so wrong with a willingness to learn about other perspectives, even if you don't agree with them?
|
|
|
|
Post by strat-0 on May 13, 2006 11:45:37 GMT -5
Good ideas here, and well put, Chris.
About all I'd like to add at this point is that no moderator or admin can make people treat each other with respect. It just comes down to what should be deleted, and what should be left for all to see as evidence that so-and-so is being a jerk. It can be especially difficult when two people whom you like are going at it full bore. As I've said before, my tendency is towards "hands off," unless extrememly vile and offensive (and that in itself is a judgement call).
|
|
|
|
Post by Galactus on May 13, 2006 13:19:10 GMT -5
I agree but I still say there was no reason to delete Ken's thread. Even closing the boards for six months aould only be a temperary fix, within a month it'd be the same way it is now. Chrisfan has basically said it's no fun becuase she doesn't have any friends here much any more and I totally see how that would suck. There are those here who are just never going to be friendly towards her and no body here can make them...and regardless of the back story we can't hop in the way-back machine and make everything all better. Shin and Rocdoc are just never going to get along, no matter what name they have no matter how long a break they take as soon as they end up here at the same time it'll be the same shit. Both of them do it. So what do you do? Ban one of them? Both of them? Deal with it? Help me out here. What changes could we make that would that all better? That's the most extreme example that currently exist here but most of the bickering still comes from the same petty rivalery mindset. Chrisfan can pretend she's not part of it all she wants but she is. I am too. We all are. So what do we do? We try for a while until it breaks down again, like it does about once every other month and we have this exact conversation again. I don't want chrisfan to leave but I understand why she's thinking about it. If she leaves it's her choice, no one is forcing her out and the climate here hasn't changed except that there's less people to turn to when someone else is being a shithead. It's like being in a car for a long trip, you get sick of whoever you're in the car with eventually. We're sick of each other, pure and simple. The answer is we need some new blood, new voices. Let go find some.
|
|
|
|
Post by RocDoc on May 13, 2006 14:33:48 GMT -5
Shin and Rocdoc are just never going to get along, no matter what name they have no matter how long a break they take as soon as they end up here at the same time it'll be the same shit. Both of them do it.
I cringe when I'm turned into something equivalent to that perma-pissed little jagoff.
But coming from you DED(or Kenny), it's expected, no matter the (here, horseshit) tone of 'fairness' you're trying to cloak yourself in.
But of course me even 'intruding' here is going to be 'See?'
To those, well, a hearty 'Fuck you' is as good as a wink.
Nor will anyone ever have seen any contribution from me as nothing more than simply 'firestarting'...I most definitely HAVE tried to treat shin as just any generic poster, several times....and that massively neurotic ass just won't let go. Period.
Perceive that however the fuck you want it.
As for having dropped CE, it's this sort of myopic bullshit regarding anything I've said, that it's all 'one-note' sameoldsameold...killed any enthusiasm that I'll ever pass on anything seen as valid there.
Your own little world....keep it.
|
|
