Israel VS Palestine

[kmc]

Sure, I agree with Rocky. I did not say that the only reason was the land reason. That is also a massive oversimplification.

I feel that the difference is significant (in this instance, as well as in others) because, psychologically, you are bound to pay more attention to grievances when you feel, to some extent, that those grievances are justified. This is the only way to significantly make a dent in this Jewish/Arab thing. When we consign their behavior to plain racist wackiness (you know, the way we do the Klan, or other no-cause "racist for racism's sake" organizations) we really just do exacerbate the situation overseas.

We cannot kill them all. They have children who will grow up feeling that the West has marginalized them unless we address the concerns that give rise to something like Hezbollah.

I am not saying we must negotiate with Hezbollah or Al-Qaeda. Those are lost causes we helped create. I am saying that to keep these things from happening in the future, our way of thinking about this must change. Can anyone say that we are not simply promoting the status-quo in middle east? Has anything changed at all?

[chrisfan]

kmc said:

I feel that the difference is significant (in this instance, as well as in others) because, psychologically, you are bound to pay more attention to grievances when you feel, to some extent, that those grievances are justified.

Am I massively misunderstanding this statement, or are you saying that advocating for the killing of all Jews is justified?

Anger on both sides over the conflict is certainly justified. As has been said repeatedly around here, both sides have blood all over their hands. Both sides certainly have their factions who are making things worse. It seems to me that when you have a group advocating for the elimination of all Jews, THAT is making things worse. Allowing for any justification of that extreme of a response to injustice makes it worse too.

[Galactus]

chrisfan said:

ded said:

Does anyone think they would continue to want to eradicate the Jews if they all packed up and left Isreal?

I agree with Rocky that the answer is yes. After all, Hezbollah was founded in response to the Isreali occupation of Lebanon - not the exsistence of Israel. Israel pulled out of Lebanon six years ago, and yet Hezbollah's efforts have continued.

Well, sure but the Isrealis didn't go far. As Rocky said it's clearly ingrained into their lives, they aren't going to let it go overnight. The fact remains though that if they really really wanted eradicate the Jews they are being extremely inefficient about it. That sound aweful but they have the capability to do much more so why aren't they? I think the answer is becuase for all these thousands of years the leaders have always known it's just politics. Do they really hate the jews? Yes, but they also have to know that it wouldn't do to actually get rid of them.

[kmc]

chrisfan said:

kmc said:

I feel that the difference is significant (in this instance, as well as in others) because, psychologically, you are bound to pay more attention to grievances when you feel, to some extent, that those grievances are justified.

Am I massively misunderstanding this statement, or are you saying that advocating for the killing of all Jews is justified?

Anger on both sides over the conflict is certainly justified. As has been said repeatedly around here, both sides have blood all over their hands. Both sides certainly have their factions who are making things worse. It seems to me that when you have a group advocating for the elimination of all Jews, THAT is making things worse. Allowing for any justification of that extreme of a response to injustice makes it worse too.

You are misunderstanding me. All I am saying is that the extreme position exists because of grievances we refuse to address. Like I said, it is probably too late for Hezbollah. But it is not too late to seriously consider the reasons that bring rise to Islamic extremism and to combat them. Again, do you feel like we are doing this?

[chrisfan]

Yes Kenny, I believe we are doing that. I addressed that several pages back on this thread.

[KayJay]

After doing nearly 2 days' worth of research, looking for anything about Israel to justify Hezbollah's goals of wiping out Jews worldwide, I can find nothing. I'm so sorry. I know that Israel isn't perfect my any means... no country is.

The main prisoner that Hezbollah wanted released to them (the reason they captured the 2 Israeli soldiers, starting this mess) is a Lebanese man who went into Israel in 1979 with another (who has already been released to Lebanon years ago). They went into an apartment after being spotted by Israeli police. In this apartment was a 28-year-old man, his wife, a 4-year-old daughter, and a 2-year old. These Lebanese men held the man and the 4-year-old captive in their apartment. Searching for the rest of the family and not finding them (the wife and the 2-year-old were hiding under floorboards), the still-imprisoned Lebanese man shot the man in the head in front of the 4-year-old. He then hit the child in the head with the butt of his gun, smashing her head into a rock and killing her. They were later captured, only after killing 2 Israeli police officers in a shoot-out. The wife of the dead man, trying to keep her 2-year-old quiet so as not to be found by the Lebanese killers, accidentally suffocated the child.

The two Lebanese men were charged with murder in Israel, found guilty, and sentenced to 4 times life. In 1988 Lebanon and Israel worked out an exchange for the Lebanese man who did not do the killing in the apartment in 1979.

The most recent negotiations for the exchange of the 1979 Lebanese killer for the 2 Israeli soldiers failed. Israel had agreed to exchange the 1979 killer for the 2 Israeli soldiers with one additional condition: Lebanon must either release or tell them what happened to a certain businessman from Israel. Hezbollah refused. Israel then began taking measures to fight Hezbollah, initally in an effort to save their 2 Israeli soldiers. Now we are where we are today. There's more.... following.

[KayJay]

This makes me physically ill:


TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND
Hezbollah's new computer game
Players take target practice on Sharon, Israeli leaders

Posted: March 3, 2003
12:17 p.m. Eastern

© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

The terrorist group Hezbollah, backed by Iran and based in southern Lebanon, has begun marketing a computer game simulating attacks on Israeli soldiers and allowing target practice using Israeli officials such as Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

The game, "Special Force," took two years of development by the Hezbollah Central Internet Bureau, according to a report today in Lebanon's Daily Star.

According to the report, the game, which hit the market two weeks ago, places players in different stages of Hezbollah operations against the Jewish state. Players face the same conditions as Hezbollah terrorists, including geographic locations, mines, the number of Israeli troops and even the weather conditions. Special Force also offers a training simulation, where players can practice their shooting skills on targets such as Sharon and other Israeli political and military figures.

On the cover of the game's box, a message to users says "the designers of Special Force are very proud to provide you with this special product, which embodies objectively the defeat of the Israeli enemy and the heroic actions taken by heroes of the Islamic Resistance in Lebanon." It adds: "Be a partner in the victory. Fight, resist and destroy your enemy in the game of force and victory."

Mahmoud Rayya, an official from the Hezbollah bureau, told the Daily Star that Special Force was designed to compete against foreign computer games that show Arabs as enemies and Americans as the heroes that defeat them.

Rayya said that the decision to produce the game was made by top Hezbollah officials, who believe it will help them win the international media war with Israel.

"This game is resisting the Israeli occupation through the media," he added.

Rayya said that the game would introduce the resistance to young people.

"In a way, Special Force offers a mental and personal training for those who play it, allowing them to feel that they are in the shoes of the resistance fighters," Rayya said.

He said that game has been a "success," since it was launched two weeks ago, adding that it had already sold thousands of copies in Lebanon. The game is currently selling in Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Bahrain and United Arab Emirates, Rayya said, adding that the distributors were aiming to reach more countries soon.

Video Game Mounts Simulated Attacks Against Israeli Targets (From the New York Times)

May 18, 2003
By DANIEL J. WAKIN

BEIRUT, Lebanon, May 17 - The introduction is an exploding Israeli tank. A row of burning Israeli flags marks time while the computer loads a "training session" in which shooting Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's electronic forehead on a target is worth 10 points.

"Victory comes from no one but Allah," exhorts the screen before the mission begins.

The hottest video game for the teenagers of Beirut's southern Shiite neighborhoods is "Special Force," a
creation of Hezbollah, the strongly anti-Israel militant organization that is on the United States' terror list.

"Special Force," with its simulated attacks on the Israeli military, was released in February, quickly took off and is to be followed later this month by a more sophisticated version that can link multiple players on a network.

While not the first politically oriented video game to enter Middle Eastern cyberspace, "Special Force" is a sign
of Hezbollah's elaborate propaganda efforts. Its popularity is also an indication of Hezbollah's success in permeating popular consciousness in Lebanon and in gaining political legitimacy here.

Washington has implicated Hezbollah in terrorist attacks in the 1980's and says it remains a terrorist force with
worldwide operations. With the removal of Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq, the United States has renewed pressure on Lebanon and one of Hezbollah's sponsors, Syria, to disarm the group and halt its activities.

Hezbollah says it is focusing on resisting the Israeli occupation of a disputed patch of land on Israel's northern
border and on providing moral support to the Palestinian struggle in the West Bank and Gaza.

Its relentless attacks helped drive out Israeli forces from southern Lebanon in 2000, ending a 22-year occupation. That has given Hezbollah a certain stature here and elsewhere in the Arab world.

Hezbollah has capitalized on that stature, entrenching itself in Lebanese society with the patronage of Syria, the
power broker here, and with Iranian financing and arms, United States and Israeli officials say.

A shrewd media presence has helped. Hezbollah operates a television and radio station and Web sites.

The latest effort is the "Special Force" game. Segments are based on actual attacks on Israeli positions, the makers say, and include maps provided by Hezbollah's military wing.

In one game situation, the player fires simulated pistols and Kalashnikov rifles, seeking to infiltrate an Israeli
military position. The opportunities for martyrdom, from exploding land mines and snipers, are rife.

"You must oppose, confront and destroy the machines of the Zionist enemy and remind them that entering Lebanese villages is not a stroll," the text reads. The session ends with a medal awarded by the leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah.

The packaging says the game seeks to show "the defeat of the Israeli enemy and the heroic actions taken by the
heroes of the Islamic Resistance in Lebanon."

A member of the game's design team, Bilal Zain, said "Special Force" was intended to disseminate Hezbollah's
"values, concepts and ideas," as well as to give Hezbollah fans a chance to feel as if they were taking part in
attacks they cheered from afar.

Mr. Zain said the video game also served as a counterweight to other games on the international market that depicted Arabs as terrorists instead of as freedom fighters with legitimate grievances. He said "Special Force" was less bloody than many other games.

"We want others to know our land is occupied, our people are imprisoned in Israeli jails, our houses are being
demolished," he said.

The border area controlled by Hezbollah is quiet for now, he said. "But we do not want the resistance concept to
vanish," he said. "We want this idea to live among the Arab people, the Islamic people."

He said about 10,000 copies of "Special Force" had been sold in Lebanon, Syria, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Canada, Germany and Australia. It can be played in English, French, Arabic and Farsi.

The game is often played at places like the Champions Internet Cafe in the Haret Hreik neighborhood in south
Beirut, a predominantly Shiite area of rundown buildings where several computer stores said "Special Force" had sold out.

The cafe's window is adorned with Hezbollah's yellow flag, depicting an upraised arm holding a Kalashnikov aloft, and one of the many posters advertising "Special Force" found in the area.

The decor is combat chic. Bamboo partitions are intended to evoke the Vietnam war. Red sandbags line the walls, which are painted with camouflage designs and hold several rows of plastic Kalashnikovs. Photographs of Sheik Nasrallah and Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei sit on a display shelf.

Ibrahim Tohmaz, 14, firing away on a mission, said he liked the game's realism. "Shooting at Sharon - it was nice to shoot at his head," he said. "He's a bad person."

A dozen others were playing another violent game called "Counterstrike," in which generic terrorists fight generic commandos. Players can choose which to be. This was another of Ibrahim's favorites. He said he liked to take the part of the terrorist.

"We have a better chance of killing our opponent," he said.

[KayJay]

Please, everyone.... before you discount any of this, do some extended research, which is what I have done.

Read those interviews I posted yesterday. Really read them. Read where Nasrallah talks about the patience they have. Read how he states the goals of Hezbollah. They don't yet have the strength and backing to wipe out the Jews... but they're working on it. They aren't ready to wipe them out yet. They are patiently working toward reaching their ultimate goal. They are playing Israel like a fiddle. Each time they provoke Israel into fighting, it's a feather in Hezbollah's cap, making Israel look bad and evil.

Hezbollah is succeeding. If not stopped soon, Nasrallah will lead Hezbollah to a stunning success... they WILL wipe the Jews out. They don't follow the rules. They follow their own agenda. They're doing a fantastic job at keeping on track.

This is more frightening than I ever imagined. This is pure evil.

[luke]

That video game reminds me of on the Daily Show when they showed a clip of Valley of the Wolves, the movie with Gary Busey as an evil Jewish scientist conducting experiments on Arab children, while Billy Zane and Tito Ortiz are brutal, evil American soldiers assisting him.

Anyway, even the liberal cheerleading Daily Show crowd balked at the scene of Zane gunning down a truck full of Arab children, which led into Stewart smiling and then showing clips of about a dozen Hollywood flicks that show the same thing in reverse.

[KayJay]

Hezbollah is in no hurry. They will take their time.

[KayJay]

I will now officially sign out of this discussion. I can't take it any more.

[kmc]

chrisfan said:

Yes Kenny, I believe we are doing that. I addressed that several pages back on this thread.

Where?

[chrisfan]

kmc said:

chrisfan said:

Yes Kenny, I believe we are doing that. I addressed that several pages back on this thread.

Where?

Starts on page 15.

[shin]

chrisfan said:

I'm going to sound like a broken record some more and say pretty much ditto to Rocky's answer. However, I'm not sure that it'd be true to say the root cause is feeling wronged over land. I believe that when you look at history - espeically if you accept the bible as a record of history - than the conflict goes back much further than a land conflict that began last century. Honestly, I think that in many ways you do really have to trace it all the way back to being a conflict between two half brothers and their respective mothers. The battles over each groups exsistence, and claims to ownership of land and temples was going on in biblical times -- the old testament seriously before Christ biblical times.

Um.

[kmc]

Really, Chrisfan? Your way of addressing Palestinian concerns is to let Israel blow them to smithereens? That's your answer?