Israel VS Palestine

[luke]

Well. I figure we got half a century before Mother Nature caves in at MINIMUM.

I don't see this taking that long.

But hopefully, I'm just that drunken loon with the "The End Is Nigh!" sign.

[shin]

Look, WWIII is not going to happen unless a nuke drops. That's the geopolitical reality we live in, and have lived in for the last 40 years. A hundred wars can happen at once and it won't be Part Three until that big mushroom cloud, so let's not count our chickens before they hatch, here.

[Dr. Drum]

Luke’s just channeling the feeling that the world is going to hell in a fucking handcart. Which, of course, it is and in many ways like never before. In the late 70s/early 80s you often had that feeling – you've got detente falling apart, the return in a big way of nuclear paranoia, economies in a shambles of stagflation, unemployment and high interest rates, Reagan admin. rhetoric, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Iran-Iraq War, Lebanese Civil War, the various wars in Central America, terrorism, etc. etc. etc. – but that had nothing on this. As insane as it was sometimes, that had some kind of internal logic to it. This is just a fucking bloody mess.

That said, yeah, not the beginning of WWIII. You're not going to get another general world war unless you get all the great powers of the world squaring off in opposing sets of alliances, formal or informal. That's been the basic template for producing big general global wars for at least the last 250 years, and you could argue longer. Not beyond the realm of possibility that we could see the world reverting to that kind of structure again in our lifetimes – the makings are all there now, in fact – but our present problems are rooted in a waning unipolar system.

As to what Israel is thinking, two things; 1. I tend agree with Gideon Levy that Olmert and Peretz are babes in the woods vs. the generals of the IDF, and 2. Everything is predicated on eventually – actually in quite short order – imposing a "settlement" on the Palestinians. If this had hadn’t started with Corporal Shalit, it would have been something else.

[chrisfan]

mary said:

I wanted to know what die-hard pro-Israel folks had to say about this. I found this quote from a typically over-the-top and ideologically off-the-wall David Horowitz article, which I thought was really unintentionally revealing:

The war reveals the impossibility of a Palestinian state and the necessity of a civilized occupying force in a region that is populated by a people who have been terminally brainwashed into an ideology of hate, which makes their self-government a crime waiting to happen.

Note what Horowitz is saying here: democracy for the Palestinians - and more broadly for many in the Middle East, since he makes virtually no distinction - is basically criminal. Note how this puts Horowitz at odds with the official rhetoric of those who are ostensibly his pols - so much for freedom and democracy in the Middle East. So much for Bush's noble vision of democracy as the new manifest destiny. And what are we to think about this as it relates to Iraq - Iraq, where the Shi'a are a majority, where America's official policy is clearly to empower this majority rather than the formerly empowered Sunnis. What if Iraq's Shi'a feel solidarity with Lebanon's Shi'a (Hezbollah being a Shiite organization) - what does that mean for democracy in Iraq, from Horowitz's standpoint?

His offhand statement really reveals what many of us have always suspected was lurking behind the rhetoric about freedom and democracy - pure imperialism. "Civilized occupation" - what is that, the new white mans burden?? How far does the imperative of civilized occupation spread - surely not just the Palestinians, given that Israel is presently attacking Lebanon for actions of Hezbollah, a group supported by Iran and Syria? Perhaps we need a civilized occupation of all these countries? Perhaps we need a civilized occupation of the entire Middle East? Where does this logic run out?

It's all very, very scary.

M

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa ... when the hell did David Horowitz become the sane voice of the right? There IS sane, conservative, pro-Israel thought out there,and it's easily accessible. Start with Hugh Hewitt or Dennis Prager on this topic if you'd like to see some viewpoints rather than inflamatory BS that Shin can dance around saying "I told you so".

[luke]

Okay, please, ignore all apocolyptic drunken bantering on this end. I need a way to ban myself from this folder when I'm that drunk. Yipes.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

Chrisfan, are you fucking serious?!

"Under the pretext of forcing the release of a single soldier "kidnapped by terrorists" (or, if you prefer, "captured by the resistance"), Israel has done the following: seized members of a democratically elected government; bombed its interior ministry, the prime minister's offices, and a school; threatened another sovereign state (Syria) with a menacing overflight; dropped leaflets from the air, warning of harm to the civilian population if it does not "follow all orders of the IDF" (Israel Defense Forces); loosed nocturnal "sound bombs" under orders from the Israeli prime minister to "make sure no one sleeps at night in Gaza"; fired missiles into residential areas, killing children; and demolished a power station that was the sole generator of electricity and running water for hundreds of thousands of Gazans." From Znet.org which totally sums up my feeling verbatim on this matter.

Let's also not forget that the UN fucking created Israel and forced the Palestinians out of their own land because still anti-semetic Europe directly after World War II didn't want the Jews. They got Britain to force them in there and take over a part of their own land. Now, if you were living in a limited space and a body of people who were not elected by your own people and should not have the power to ursurp your nation's sovereignty were to put you out for the creation of a people who were Holocausted, I guarentee you would be pissed. You would want revenge against the nations that perpetuated that injustice and the people doing it. Especially with Israel instilling their now freely given independant state of land that is not theirs through excessive force.

Does having been through a holocaust give you the right to impose it on someone else as a one for one?

Also, the fact that the press is helping the Bush Administration spin this as an Iranian subplot of Serbian WWI proportions is gross at best. Anderson Cooper and his CNN goons can go to fucking hell for proporting that this is an Iranian plant or sinister devise. For one, we don't have that proof just like we don't have the proof for weapons of mass destruction. Now the irony is not lost on me that the day that Iran was supposed to answer to the UN as to whether or not they were going to suspend their Nuclear Weapons Program is not beyond me. However, and as much as I don't like Iran, this spin sounds nothing more than racist baiting bullshit about how no one likes the poor Israelites. The sad thing is that Israel took the fucking bait, if this is a baited situation, because they are hungry for destruction. I'm not anti-Israel by any means but I am anti-Zionist and this smells of Zionism at it's worst.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

I for one really do think that this has the potential of nuclear proportions.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

chrisfan said:

mary said:

I wanted to know what die-hard pro-Israel folks had to say about this. I found this quote from a typically over-the-top and ideologically off-the-wall David Horowitz article, which I thought was really unintentionally revealing:

The war reveals the impossibility of a Palestinian state and the necessity of a civilized occupying force in a region that is populated by a people who have been terminally brainwashed into an ideology of hate, which makes their self-government a crime waiting to happen.

Note what Horowitz is saying here: democracy for the Palestinians - and more broadly for many in the Middle East, since he makes virtually no distinction - is basically criminal. Note how this puts Horowitz at odds with the official rhetoric of those who are ostensibly his pols - so much for freedom and democracy in the Middle East. So much for Bush's noble vision of democracy as the new manifest destiny. And what are we to think about this as it relates to Iraq - Iraq, where the Shi'a are a majority, where America's official policy is clearly to empower this majority rather than the formerly empowered Sunnis. What if Iraq's Shi'a feel solidarity with Lebanon's Shi'a (Hezbollah being a Shiite organization) - what does that mean for democracy in Iraq, from Horowitz's standpoint?

His offhand statement really reveals what many of us have always suspected was lurking behind the rhetoric about freedom and democracy - pure imperialism. "Civilized occupation" - what is that, the new white mans burden?? How far does the imperative of civilized occupation spread - surely not just the Palestinians, given that Israel is presently attacking Lebanon for actions of Hezbollah, a group supported by Iran and Syria? Perhaps we need a civilized occupation of all these countries? Perhaps we need a civilized occupation of the entire Middle East? Where does this logic run out?

It's all very, very scary.

M

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa ... when the hell did David Horowitz become the sane voice of the right? There IS sane, conservative, pro-Israel thought out there,and it's easily accessible. Start with Hugh Hewitt or Dennis Prager on this topic if you'd like to see some viewpoints rather than inflamatory BS that Shin can dance around saying "I told you so".

Also, I'd hardly say that asserting an opinion, in Shin's case, is grounds for being deemed inflammatory. I don't think that that is being fair at all. Also, if the people that you are pointing out as Conservatives who are thought provoking you'll have to give me a break. There isn't a Republican in office today that is actually conservative. They are all power hungry idiots who are so out of touch with the general public, it's comical. The only thing that Republicans can define themselves as is out of touch rich white guys who's only concern is staying in their respected offices for the good of their power addiction and nothing more.

What I'm more concerned with is people making excuses for a country that if it were any other country other than Israel, we'd be putting some serious UN sanctioned limitations on them right now for the behavior they have evoked in the last few days.

[shin]

How is it inflammatory to point out that for the last 3+ fucking years, I have said, over and over again, that this PNAC administration has imperial ambitions and that this has never been about WMDs or spreading democracy? How?

Chrisfan, are you just that fucking stupid?

[kmc]

I am actually looking for the justification for Israel's nutso attack. Can you elucidate, Chrisfan?

[chrisfan]

skvorisdeadsorta said:

Chrisfan, are you fucking serious?!

Am I serious in believing that there are pro-Israel conservatives writers who have done a MUCH better job of expressing their views on this issue than David Horowitz? Most definitely. The rest of your response Skvor, truly has nothing to do with anything I've said.

[chrisfan]

skvorisdeadsorta said:

chrisfan said:

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa ... when the hell did David Horowitz become the sane voice of the right? There IS sane, conservative, pro-Israel thought out there,and it's easily accessible. Start with Hugh Hewitt or Dennis Prager on this topic if you'd like to see some viewpoints rather than inflamatory BS that Shin can dance around saying "I told you so".

Also, I'd hardly say that asserting an opinion, in Shin's case, is grounds for being deemed inflammatory. I don't think that that is being fair at all. Also, if the people that you are pointing out as Conservatives who are thought provoking you'll have to give me a break. There isn't a Republican in office today that is actually conservative. They are all power hungry idiots who are so out of touch with the general public, it's comical. The only thing that Republicans can define themselves as is out of touch rich white guys who's only concern is staying in their respected offices for the good of their power addiction and nothing more.

What I'm more concerned with is people making excuses for a country that if it were any other country other than Israel, we'd be putting some serious UN sanctioned limitations on them right now for the behavior they have evoked in the last few days.

I did not call Shin's comments inflamatory. I called David Horowitz's comments inflamatory. And I did not cite elected officials as good representatives of pro-Israel conservative views on the subject ... I cited conservative writer/pundits. I'm not quite clear onwhy you keep arguing points I've not made.

[chrisfan]

Kenny, are you in the least bit curious as to the reasons behind the nutso attacks that have happened TO the Isrealis? They voluntarily pull out of Gaza, making that concession to the Palestinians as a show of their commitment to peace. In return, they get two soldiers murdered, and another taken prisoner. Sorry Ken - I find a military response to terrorist attacks far more logical than I do terrorist attacks as a response to getting your own land and a commitment to move forward to peace and a Palestinian state.

The problem is that the Isrealis are willing (though reluctant) to move towards concessions that would create a Palestinian state. But the Palestinians don't appear to be satisfied with anything short of the complete obliteration of Israel. Put it in perspective.

[phil]

The Gaza pullout had nothing to do with any commitment for peace.

The Gaza Strip Jewish settlments (10 000 people) were not
strategicaly important enough to keep all the military ressources
needed to protect the place ...

Now they've created a nice open-air prison - a ghetto -
for over a million Palestinians which they can control at will.

There are more than 200 000 settlers in the West Bank
and those, according the the Israelis PM are there to stay !!

The map of a future palestinian state looks like a Swiss cheese right now !

[phil]

Jewish settlements in the West Bank ...



Gaza Strip VS West Bank ...



LoL @ the commitment for peace !!