Booth # 4: Religion and Spirituality

[JACkory]

Nice post, Thorny.
If the day should come when you are no longer "content to be illuminated in (the light) with (your) eyes shut tight", I hope you will reconsider the gospel of Jesus Christ.
He said it Himself...He is the way, the truth and the life.
And His arms are always open.
He loves you.
Peace.

[Meursault]

That was a good post Thorn.

Christians: Have you ever read the whole or parts of Imitation of Christ? Any thoughts on it?

(my bloody valentine just came on, i love this band)

also how do you incoroporate these sayings of Jesus into your life....forgive me if i don't have them exactly right..

"do not pick out the speck in your neighbors eye, when their is a log in your own."

"if someone slaps you turn the other cheek and let him slap that one too"

?

[JACkory]

meursault said:

That was a good post Thorn.

Christians: Have you ever read the whole or parts of Imitation of Christ? Any thoughts on it?

(my bloody valentine just came on, i love this band)

also how do you incoroporate these sayings of Jesus into your life....forgive me if i don't have them exactly right..

"do not pick out the speck in your neighbors eye, when their is a log in your own."

"if someone slaps you turn the other cheek and let him slap that one too"

?

I have read Tomas a Kempis' Imitation of Christ in it's entirety. I found it to be a tad severe, but inspiring nevertheless. Very Catholic.

The first verse you cite has to do with being judgemental, and the hypocrisy of pointing out someone's shortcomings without taking into account one's own. It is a hyperbolic way of saying that we have no right to criticize others while we are just as guilty of the same things we criticize. The following verse tells us to remove the plank from our own eye and then we will be able to see clearly to remove the speck from our brothers eye. Some people think this means that it's okay to make judgements as long as we've dealt with the issue being judged in our own lives, but I don't see it that way. Jesus is telling us to "remove the plank from our own eye"...but that does not necessarilly imply that we CAN remove it on our own (any more than it is actually possible to have a plank in the eye to begin with). Perhaps what He is saying is that IF it were possible for us to remove our own sin we would be justified in pointing out the sins of others, but since we can't do that on our own we have no business pointing fingers. Judgement is the Lord's, period. "Judge not and ye will not be judged". Judge, and be found a hypocrite.

I take the "turn the other cheek" quote to mean that in our personal relationships with people we are to put others first to the extent that we not even retaliate if attacked.
No doubt there are other interpretations and levels of meaning in the quote you're citing here, but to me it ties in with this passage from Philippians: "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. "---Philippians 2:3

How do I incorporate them into my life?
By making a conscious effort to refrain from judging others. Difficult at first, but it gets easier as time goes on and with the Lord's help...plus, it helps when you come to the point where you realize the extent of your own sinfulness and reliance on the Lord for mercy, grace and forgiveness. At that point you really cut folks a LOT of slack.
Incorporating the "other cheek" quote into my life...I strive to cast out pride and subdue my ego so that I may be sincerely humble in all my dealings with others, to the best of my abilities considering their needs and desires over my own.

[stratman19]

I'm not sure if this post is appropriate for this forum, but with JAC's indulgence, I'll post it anyway. No replies are necessary as this is more of a "thinking out loud" post rather than some coherent attempt at intelligence or the making of a point. I'm posting this because a week ago today, I actually prayed.

I was at work, we had just gotten back from fighting a house fire and were cleaning equipment, when I got word that my daughter had been involved in an accident. She had been hit by a semi. That's all the information I had. Needless to say, I was very shaken. I left work immediately. They say there are no atheists in foxholes...well, maybe there wasn't an agnostic in a speeding car carrying a father 60 miles home to a hospital ER to be with his daughter either...I really don't know. I have to admit that I prayed all the way home, and I really don't care what the smartasses around here have to say about it.

I finally got to the ER after what seemed like forever. My ex-wife was there, and was a wreck (understandably). My parents were there as well as my ex-inlaws. Imagine my relief when I finally saw my daughter and all she had were relatively minor injuries. Contusions and lacerations, both arms burned from the wrists to the elbows, but she was alive, and "all right". They had her sedated because she had been tachycardic, with a heart rate in the mid 140's, but she was all right.
I offered up a prayer of thanks at that moment. I don't even know if I prayed the right way. I wasn't even really sure if anyone was there to listen, but I prayed anyway.





The only part of my daughter's car that largely escaped damage was the area immediately behind the steering wheel. She was wearing her seatbelt, and the airbag deployed. They found her glasses on the pavement underneath the car...I have no idea how that happened...the scrunchies that were holding her hair in a ponytail were blown right off her head by the force of the impact...my mother, family friends, hell, even a couple of guys from work who called to see how everything was later that day, said that a guardian angel had protected her. I don't know about that, but I'm in no position to dispute it. It was because of this possibility that I felt honor bound to offer up a prayer of gratitude; of thanks.

If Luck/Fate were solely responsible, then no thanks to anything, or anyone, would be required. But what if it was something divine? What if a guardian angel, or even the hand of God himself, had kept my daughter safe? My mind has been spinning for the last week. It made me think of a painting my mother had in our house when my brothers and me were little kids. I even think a print of it was in one of her old Bibles. I didn't know what it was called, but I googled for it and finally found it.



This pretty much sums up how I feel. I never want to get another phone call like that as long as I live...

This accident, and the possibility of losing my little girl prematurely, has had a profound effect on me. I'm more confused now than I have ever been...

Anyway, I just had to get all that shit off my chest. Thanks JAC. Whew.

[chrisfan]

Wow Stratman ... I know you said no replies are necessary, but after a powerful post like that, I can't NOT respond. First off, and most importantly, I am SO glad to know that your daughter is going to be okay. I will keep her recovery in my prayers. It is good to know that the car took that much damage rather than her. I have more to say on this, but I think I"m going to PM it to you.

[Meursault]

So glad to hear your daughter is doing and well and didn't suffer any major injuries. Sending my best wishes for a quick recovery to her Stratman.

[JACkory]

Thank you for sharing that, stratman. What an experience.
Thank God your daughter came out of it without any major injuries...could have been a lot worse...I praise God that it wasn't, and will also keep her recovery in my prayers, if you don't mind.

[Nepenthe]

Good to see your daughter is ok stratman, I have been pulled out of many tight spots myself. And Yes I do think everyone has a guardian angel.

Just wanted to pop in, its been a long time since I was here.

Here is some interesting stuff if anyone is interested. I have known about this for a long time, since about 1996 after seeing a documentary by E. Raymond Capt.
But I didn't know we had one of these thorn bushes here in the US. There is a legend, pretty well known over in England. The legend is that Joseph of Arimathea, Mary, and Jesus use to travel to Glastonbury England when Jesus was between the ages of 12 and 30, the years aren't mentioned in the bible except that he was teaching somewhere during this time. Also after his crucifixion Joseph, Mary and others continued travelling to Glastonbury Abbey and started a church. The Glastonbury Abbey is the World's oldest above ground christian church. William Blake wrote the poem Jerusalem about this legend.

Well it is said that Joseph was a tin trader, and Glastonbury is an old tin mining town. There is a thorn bush there that is planted that was supposed to be planted by Joseph, it was not a native plant in England but it is native to Israel. The thorn bush only blooms on Christmas day.

Well we have one here that was grafted from the one in England. The one here is at the Washington National Cathedral and it only blooms on Christmas Day and it has bloomed 3 other times, and that is when British Royalty has visited the US.

Now history says the one in England was burned to the ground at one point but apparently it either grew back on its own or they were prepared for this and had others grafted in case of something like this happening.

I checked out the website to the Washington National Cathedral and was amazed at all of the stuff I found about the construction of it. The many parallels to the Abbey. Here is a link to it. And I am including a link to the Glastonbury Abbey and to a Washington tourist site and if you scroll down the page on the tourist site you will see the Washington National Cathedral Gardens, here it talks about the thorn bush.

link to Glastonbury Abbey

www.glastonburyabbey.com/

link to Washington National Cathedral

www.cathedral.org/cathedral/discover/highaltar.shtml

link to the tourism site - scroll down to the WNC Gardens

www.washington.org/index.cfm?ID=7636&Page=18&blnShowBack=True&idContentType=630&IDPG=18

[ScottsyII]

Stratman, that was an incredible, heart wrenching story. Very brave to share such a big part of yourself so very publicly, too. So glad to hear your daughter is ok too.

I know it's not something I share alot on these boards, but I consider myself a deeply sipiritual person and I have felt many "intervening" moments like you probably just did.

I'm just workin' up the courage to actually put my fingers to keyboard to type all of the stuff that reminds me how God has played a role in my life and how there are so many little moments of "intersection" where I genuinely felt that a message was being sent to me.

I grew up a Catholic, but have sorta drifted away from the catholic faith, but generally speaking, much of my faith is built on the bible, particularly the actions / Teachings of Christ. I'm in no way a fundamentalist, nor am I radical, nor do I particularly follow catholicism to the nth degree at this point... but I know what and who I believe in and who I put my faith in.

[JACkory]

I can't help but be reminded of the morning in December of 1997 when I rolled my car into a ditch going 70 miles per hour...I've shared the experience on the RS.com boards, so I won't go into details, but the one thing I remember most about it was when, sure I was about to die, I called out to God, even though I had been in an agnostic state of denial for 11 years at that point.
I narrowly missed a concrete embankment that would have surely demolished the car and left me either dead or very seriously injured. Instead, the car careened, upside down, into an area cushioned by weeds, brush and grass. I walked away from the accident with a bruised knee (from it hitting the steering wheel as I fell from the seat to the ceiling)...
I really didn't think much about it in the 5 years following, before I returned to the Lord, but now I realize that God was there and that He answered me when I called out. I see now, with the clarity of hindsight, WHY He answered, why it was not "my time" that cold winter morning. It was His enduring love and mercy, as He knew that I would return to Him in March of 2002...that I would give Him praise and glory...that I would be able to look back on the incident and thank Him from the bottom of my heart for hearing me and answering...

I only hope that someday, stratman, my friend, you and your daughter may be able to look back on June 2005 and recognize the hand of God that most surely was at work through it all...

[strat-0]

I'm glad she's alright, too, Strat! What a harrowing experience for her and for you! That must be a parent's worst nightmare, and to only get that limited information at first - that trip to the hospital must have been terrible. The car is a mess - I hope she's doing OK.

[melon1]

Stratman,

You're post of your recent experience nearly brought me to tears. I too am very glad your daughter turned out to be OK. It is my belief that the Lord heard your prayer and answered it just as he heard your prayer when you were a child.

[Thorngrub]

Stratman - - thank god your daughter made it through unscathed. What a horrific thing to have to go through. I can't even imagine what you were thinking after the phone call. Our hearts go out to you with joy and relief that she is okay and unhurt. I believe in guardian angels because I have had numerous occasions which proved I myself must have one nearby -- I've had my life inexplicably saved in an auto-accident before as well; my seat-belt saved my life once. All I know is that this life has a grand plan for all of us, and obviously that plan means to have your daughter close at hand by your side for a long time more to come. All my best to you and your entier family -- and thank the heavenly stars everything turned out alright.

[stratman19]

JAC, I'd like to thank you for allowing my recent bit of soul bearing. It was cathartic, and it helped immensely to get that off my chest. Thanks again.

I also realize I said that no replies were necessary, but for all of you that took the time and effort to offer your support, you have my deepest, sincerest thanks. Take care all.

[JACkory]

Any time, my friend.