Booth # 4: Religion and Spirituality

[Thorngrub]

Personally, I believe God does exist in the same fashion as Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder; i.e, a purely subjective reality that ends up being every bit as concretely REAL as the physical manifestation of the atomic universe. Because I believe that we are all one thing, the Universe, you, fishes, trees, rocks, the elements, and I. ALL OF IT ONE SINGULAR ENTITY, living, breathing, stretching throughout an enormously unfathomable precinct which only a fraction of may be glimpsed through the hubble and our own naked eyes. I even firmly believe that the Universe does not merely Expand nor does it merely Contract, rather: I believe that THE UNIVERSE IS ACTUALLY LIVING AND BREATHING, that for an immeasurable cosmic period during the EXHALE, scientists for generations studiously measure this and conclude the Universe is Expanding; then after an untold Epoch when the Exhalation is done, the Universe begins Contracting as it takes in its Breath, and for generations scientists' conclusions reverse themselves. That is what I believe, that we are all merely constituents of one Universal Whole Entity, and in this Light, I would say "GOD" is as good a Label as any to accurately describe this phenomenon.

[Thorngrub]

Hence I'm in with the whole "We Are God" camp yet I must stress that I do not believe God is limited to We; rather, He encompasses All Things Dead And Alive.

I'd like to embark upon some Speculative theorems in order to Algebraically calculate as near an approximation to the Truth as can be deduced by the keen intellect of Man. As Arthur Conan Doyle's pre-eminent sleuth was oft wont to say, "Eliminate the impossible, and whatever remains, however unlikely, is the truth". I have embarked on this odyssey years ago in fact, and my life of appeaseless curiosity is an endless engagement in the pursuit of this Truth which once arrived at, cannot be Proven by scientific method, rather, may only be Isolated to a Pinpointed Truth arrived at by Logical Deduction and authenticated by Faith.

I believe there is faith and there is Faith, and there is also a Third hybrid, "FAITH", and in addition to this holy trinity I believe there are as many permutations of "faith" as can be calculated by the cross-referencing of these initial three. In other words, I really believe there are as many Faiths as there are human beings alive today on this planet; it is up to each one of us whether or not we wish to work hard enough to calibrate the inherent differences in our Faiths so that they may compatibly suit each other.

I.E, I really do believe there is a line where Faith & Science meet, and that anyone may arrive at the cosmic truth via either pathway.

Existance is a matter of our apprehending the fact we are perceptive creatures, and that our brains are the tools, including our 5 senses as outlets/inputs, which translate the raw data of our environment into a language that we are able to process and understand.

This is why I believe that in a very real and fundamental sense, all religions are correct and ultimately equal each other; i.e, "Allah" and "Jehovah" and "Yaweh" and "God" are all one and the same Entity, merely looked at through seperate filters of perception.

[Rit]

awesome, Thorn

now that's a healthy religious view, in my opinion. Not demoninational, not dogmatic, but rather more inclusive, flexible, and perhaps even poetic to the core.

mad props, yo, mad props ;D

[Rit]

JACkory wrote

As for me, certain knowledge that God did not exist would definately change my world and not in a good way. I'm afraid my baser instincts would rejoice in the freedom to do as I please regardless of the consequences if such were the case. Without God I would subscribe to Phil's point-of-view that "the only virtue of life is survival" and whatever (and I do mean WHATEVER) I need to do to "survive" (in the manner that I deem worthy of calling "survival") is exactly what I'd do, and let the chips fall where they may.

Jac, that's fairly disturbing. I'm finally beginning to glean a glimpse of the inner workings of Jackory. I'm always curious when i encounter people who have strong faith. It's an anomaly in my eyes. I don't mean that in a bad way at all, i mean as in, it's one of life's mysteries to me, strong faith is.

All told, i'm happy to be reading your posts and interacting.

Though, to return to the point, the sentiments expressed in that above quote of yours is unsettling. This is what plays through your mind when you contemplate a world with no God?

[Thorngrub]

Further, I believe that this is precisely the basis with which Jesus taught his disciples to love and honour his fellow man; to "turn the other cheek to your enemies", and to learn humbleness and forgiveness.

This is why I believe our current president who is embarking on a self-righteous War against those infidels who would wage their Jihad against us is not truly following the actual Christian doctrine he espouses. Because I really do believe in my heart and soul and mind that LOVE, COMPASSION, and FORGIVENESS are each all by themselves far more powerful than every last nuclear arsenal on earth put together; than every last soldier in every army of every nation on earth combined. I really do believe this, and here I am not even a "practicing Christian"~! The irony stuns me every living breathing moment I endure on this earth, in this singular lifetime the Fates have decreed I have been allowed to enjoy.

I really do believe in my heart and soul and mind that the terrorists could be defeated. And I really do believe in my heart and soul and mind that utilizing FORCE (despite the fact that apparantly that is all we know of how to use), military FORCE that is, is 100% diametrically opposed to the REAL AND CORRECT method by which to "defeat" said terrorists. I really do believe this, and again, am not even a church-going "Christian".

That is why I vehemently am opposed to this short-sighted War in Iraq. That is why I see nothing but HYPOCRISY OF THE PUREST ORDER at work from our Oval Office. That is why I would despise the man currently running our country, the world, and the human race itself into the fucking ground if I didn't hold out a more powerful belief that one such as he only withholds a mere fraction of the true power necessary for the entire human race to triumph over this adversity.

I actually could care less if big ol baddie Bushie gets re-elected for another slight 4-yr term. Because I harbor Hope in my breast that as a Collective, we remaining Human Beings shall prevail, and it will have zero to do with this spiritually-, mentally-challenged fortunate-son dropout's ideas of setting things "right".

If you think things'll be "set right" by us attacking back with re-doubled military force, then I'm sorry to say it but I must: You have merely missed the single most important Message your own Bible has been trying to tell you all your lives. Just what do you think the "Good Word" means, anyway? Do you take it merely at face-value, that despite Man's inherent Sinfullness, We will all get to embrace Our Father after our fleshly demise? If that's the case, NO WONDER you so fervently flock to his Houses on Sundays, cuz setting yourself to believe in Him will get you off the hook, hmmm? Because I believe that The Word is simply that if we maintain our ability and intention to Love and show Mercy and Compassion and Forgiveness, even to our own Enemies who would lead us to the Slaughter, THEN and ONLY then shall we be "saved" for the kingdom of heaven, because the kingdom of heaven shall manifest before our eyes granting us "eternal life": which I interpret as meaning the ability for the human race to perpetuate itself in peace & tranquil balance with nature under the god-given stars for time immemorial.

INSTEAD, we have consistently DENIED the teachings of Christ His Only Son until we have FORGED a NEW collective destiny for the Human Race: that of trembling on the verge of an Apocalypse, where brother slays brother out of Fear and Ignorance, all the while literally Believing The Same Exact Thing only mistakenly thinking each other dead wrong!

These thoughts are the result of an open minded attempt to interpret biblical passages often quite literally, which is ironic because isn't that what a lot of Fundamentalists are accused of doing? Perhaps the Fundamentalists simply aren't interpreting it literally enough: In essence, thoRny here ain't no "extreme Leftist" and certainly not an Atheist; rather, I am something even more hardcore than the most Conservative Fundamentalist. I am someone who yearns so strongly for an Answer to the Truth that I am willing to take the notion we have largely misinterpreted ancient biblical texts to the point of creating a vicious closed-circle parody of their mythology, and entrapped ourselves within it, just like any other brainwashing CULTS.

I believe that JEHOVAH, an ancient Hebrew word that refers to a Plurality rather than a Singularity, refers directly to a RACE of living, breathing, bleeding BEINGS who merely originate from a different sector of the cosmos.

I also believe that this is in no way "outlandish"; because it comes strictly from a methodical, common sense approach to clearing the mind and re-reading what the bible says and realizing, "OH!, so that's what it's been trying to say . .. "

I believe Our Father, Who Art In Heaven . . . may very well literally turn out to be the original Genetic Stock from whence We all came, originally. A Genetic Stock that for all I know, has been seeding the galaxy for untold generations.

Welcome to Planet Earth: just one significant nodal point harboring the very gene-code of the Gods Themselves.

[Thorngrub]

Ritalin said:

awesome, Thorn

now that's a healthy religious view, in my opinion. Not demoninational, not dogmatic, but rather more inclusive, flexible, and perhaps even poetic to the core.

mad props, yo, mad props ;D

Thanks man. I feel all warm & fuzzy inside now

[Thorngrub]

[glow=red,2,300]"...consequences..."[/glow]


Aha! So there you have it . . . Please pardon me for asking JACkory (because I earnestly mean well, and like you loads besides), but is THAT why you so fervently embrace the "Word" of God, and/or Religious doctrines -? Because you're uncertain of whether or not there may be consequences to face, depending on the nature of your actions -?

Man, I already know the consequences of my action on this earth: I'm going to die, just like the rest of you. If there are consequences beyond that which may impact me in a negative way . . . I COULD CARE LESS, man. And it's not because of apathy, either. It's because I'm strong and/or brave enough to brace myself for the worst, while hoping for the best. And that is merely in the face of the impending knowledge that it could all be for . . . naught.

This could be it, right here, right now. So with a shrug and a fare-thee-well to all, I'm ready and willing to make the best of it in this one and only lifetime of which I am aware I'll get. And by the "best of it", I certainly don't mean to lower myself below the bar of certain moral standards which dictate there is such a thing as "sin"; i.e, I am not about to reduce myself to the animalistic impulse of satisfying whatever base desires might lie dormant and deep within our primal "Id" or whatnot; I am not about to go rape, pillage, plunder, kill or any of that shit just cuz I might happen to believe there is nothing waiting for me on the Other Side: I believe This IS the "Other Side", and we are supposed to be doing everything we can to MAINTAIN the entire shebang.

Lordy, I don't know how better to explain myself, here . . .

[Rit]

Thorny Said

This could be it, right here, right now. So with a shrug and a fare-thee-well to all, I'm ready and willing to make the best of it in this one and only lifetime of which I am aware I'll get. And by the "best of it", I certainly don't mean to lower myself below the bar of certain moral standards which dictate there is such a thing as "sin"; i.e, I am not about to reduce myself to the animalistic impulse of satisfying whatever base desires might lie dormant and deep within our primal "Id" or whatnot; I am not about to go rape, pillage, plunder, kill or any of that shit just cuz I might happen to believe there is nothing waiting for me on the Other Side: I believe This IS the "Other Side", and we are supposed to be doing everything we can to MAINTAIN the entire shebang.

Lordy, I don't know how better to explain myself, here . . .

Sweet Jesus! i can always count on Thorntastic to hit the issue at hand right on the fooking nail.

[phil]

Without God I would subscribe to Phil's point-of-view that "the only virtue of life is survival" and whatever (and I do mean WHATEVER) I need to do to "survive" (in the manner that I deem worthy of calling "survival") is exactly what I'd do, and let the chips fall where they may.

I knew I should have put a capital L on the word life ...

Our whole personal existence is pretty much insignificant
in the whole process of life in the cosmos ...

Which is probably one of the biggest reason
people need some kind of "religion" so badly !!

[JACkory]

When I speak of consequences involved in my survival instinct reigning, I mean to say that people would get hurt. I'm not talking about "the other side", I'm talking about a world without God where my whole concept of justice and love have just been annihilated by learning that God does not exist.
Or then again maybe I am talking about "the other side", because it is this face-to-face encounter with Jesus Christ that is currently the whole point of my survival as things stand now. But what I meant in the last post about "consequences" was definately on THIS side...

I'm not about to turn this board into competition for Current Events by discussing politics, but suffice to say that the war in Iraq is seen as a religious war by the enemy. Not that many people here in America don't view it in a similar light, but the government has never implied that it is such, and therefore I think the above comments about Bush were somewhat out of line.
But far be it from me to deny the Bush-hater a chance to reiterate the same old same old...

Thorn, you would very much enjoy Neale Donald Walsche's Conversations With God books. He has that whole "everything is God" doctrine down to an art. I used to really advocate that whole bit, and thought it was the new revelation.
I'd like to be able to tell you exactly why I disavowed Walsche's beliefs, but I don't know if I can without going into much more detail than I want to right now.

[Rit]

Jac, you seem to have missed Thorn's (mostly) succinct point. In fact, one could claim that you only saw what you wanted to see in it.

[JACkory]

Phil said:

Our whole personal existence is pretty much insignificant
in the whole process of life in the cosmos ...

Then why is suicide considered a crime?

Why are we here at all, then?

The whole process of life in the cosmos is made up of interactions between all that is within the cosmos. Remove an individual's personal existance and it's effects on all that surrounds it (regardless how "insignificant" it may seem) and you have a different universe. Who knows how MUCH different, but different nonetheless.
Therefore I would propose that our personal experiences, regardless of their impact upon the cosmos, are anything but insignificant.
And they are, besides our names, the only things we really have when all is said and done...

[JACkory]

Ritalin said:

Jac, you seem to have missed Thorn's (mostly) succinct point. In fact, one could claim that you only saw what you wanted to see in it.

Are you referring to the part where I spoke further about "consequences" or are you referring to my dismissal of his anti-Bush remarks?
If it is the case of the former, I do apologize for not "getting it"...I tried.
If, as I suspect, it is a case of the latter...it's not that I saw only what I wanted to see of it. If that had been the case then I would have ignored it entirely, because as I thought I made clear, I'm not on this board to discuss politics. If I missed a (mostly) succinct point it was because I didn't feel obligated to TAKE a point from the political topic, which as far as I'm concerned came straight out of nowhere and with any luck will U-turn back in that general direction.

[Rit]

i wasn't talking about his political point, which i agree should be kept to the politricks board.

i was indeed referring to the consequences part. he was, i think, trying to point out the fact that you immediately assume that you'll become a raging rapist murderer (or something milder, whatever) when you find out there's no god was an issue worth exploring.

belief in original sin would lead you naturally to god, i suppose, since you've assumed the conditions for Him a priori to your conversion.

[JACkory]

Ritalin said:

i was indeed referring to the consequences part. he was, i think, trying to point out the fact that you immediately assume that you'll become a raging rapist murderer (or something milder, whatever) when you find out there's no god was an issue worth exploring.

belief in original sin would lead you naturally to god, i suppose, since you've assumed the conditions for Him a priori to your conversion.

Well, I apologize to Thorn for possibly not catching the drift on the first go-round. I was bamboozled by the complexity of the post in it's entirety and did not respond in kind. I have much respect for Thorngrub and hope he does not take offense.
I didn't mean to gloss over any point that he made, but then again I don't want to be on this computer all day long trying to explain myself (and that, trust me and my reputation for long-windedness, would be exactly what that would entail)...

Before I sign off, allow me to say concerning myself:
Never confuse a gift of good communication skills with intelligence. Philosophy makes my brain hurt.