Wacko - the second nose

[chrisfan]

Do not be embarassed by what you've thought or believed in the past Matt! All of us learn and evolve in our thinking. It's just part of life. You're better off just taking pride in the fact that you're humble enough to be open to learning more and adjusting your views as you're expanded knowledge allows you to. Free thinking is never something to regret or be embarassed by! Lack of thinking and refusal to seek knowledge ... now those are some embarassing traits!

Jac, I kind of disagree with what you said about the "secret" gospels. I don't think they have absolutely no value. Do I put them on the same level as the bible? No. But I think there is knowledge there we can draw on to get a better idea of the full picture of Christ. I see it somewhat like i see the bible as being the most important book I can read, but that doesn't mean I can't grow spiritually in tremendous ways through reading of other books and texts which shed new light on the bible for me.

[JACkory]

Well, it would seem to me that the anti-gnostic position of the Church fathers and the apostles would be a red flag and a warning to avoid what they considered heresy.
Besides, these "secret gospels" shine no new light on what's contained in the Bible. On the contrary, they muddy the waters and distort the truth.
They're a sham, just like the Book of Mormon. As an Orthhodox Christian you surely wouldn't look to Joseph Smith's epic to shine new light on the Bible, would you? If your answer is "no" then I don't know how you think "secret gospels" are going to.
I mean have you read any of these things? This is where bogus theories of Christ getting married and having children with Mary Magdalene are culled from. Surely you have to be suspect of the legitimacy of any document that purports such nonsense.

[chrisfan]

Yes Jac, these documents have been used to distort Christianity and create all sorts of conspiracy theories. But to be honest, the bible itself has also been used to distort Christianity. Just because something is used for negative purposes does not mean there is no value whatsoever in the writings. We can agree to disagree and that's fine. But in your previous post, you were coming across as speaking for Christians. I merely intended to point out that there is differing though among Christians on their value.

[JACkory]

chrisfan said:

Yes Jac, these documents have been used to distort Christianity and create all sorts of conspiracy theories. But to be honest, the bible itself has also been used to distort Christianity. Just because something is used for negative purposes does not mean there is no value whatsoever in the writings. We can agree to disagree and that's fine. But in your previous post, you were coming across as speaking for Christians. I merely intended to point out that there is differing though among Christians on their value.

Sure, I am willing to agree to disagree, but I would like to point out before I sign off on the subject that it's not so much that people have used these "secret gospels" to "distort Christianity" but the reality is that the documents themselves are a distortion of Christianity.

[Kensterberg]

I just want to make one (hopefully non-inflammatory) comment re: additional or "secret" books of the Bible. If you accept the canonical books (i.e. the accepted Bible) as being the complete revealed word of God, then JAC's position that the gnostic texts and other works are indeed nonsense, and heretical nonsense at that.

However, many devout Christians believe that the Bible is written by humans who were inspired by God, and that there may be some problems with the message as it was transfered from God to man. In the view of these folks, there may indeed be some value in the other texts, although the fact that they were not accepted as canon diminishes their persuasiveness. So for these folks, the other texts can supplement the canon, but not displace it.

Then there is the third group, those who are skeptical of the authenticity of any of these works, canon or not, and who view all them primarily as important for studying the culture of the Jewish and early Christian populations, and the development of one of the world's most important religions. For these people, all of these texts have relatively equal value, and the fact of their acceptance or rejection by the early church is a part of that value. These people view the other texts as providing insight into the breadth and dynamics of the early church, and as such any new writings which are unearthed are inherently invaluable.

So I can accept that JAC's statement can be taken at face value for others who share his religious views, but for people who do not accept the absolute truth of the Bible (as interpreted by the leaders of their respective orders), these works can provide vast insight into the goings on in the early church, and in the construction of the narrative of the life of Christ.

And BTW, I just want to give some big praise to JAC on this subject. There was a time when he would have been flaming people left and right in the course of such a discussion, and now his tone is consistently even and respectful. To be able to discuss a subject which is so dear to your heart, and which promotes strong feelings on all sides, without losing sight of the fact that this is an issue on which reasonable people can draw different conclusions, is a great thing indeed. Kudos to you, my friend.

[chrisfan]

I need to interrupt this discussion for a bit of a topical post regarding the original topic of this board ... I was watching TV last night, and heard some comment made by someone in the LAPD about how Michael Jackson would never be returning to the US. I cannot remember the exact context of the comment (I was making some delish chicken marsala at the time). But the tone of the comment was that the LAPD had made some sort of arrangement or threat to Wacko that they'd leave him alone from further investigation if he'd leave the country forever. Has anyone else heard this?

[Kensterberg]

Chrisfan -- I hadn't heard that, but I'd believe it. The LAPD is certainly not above such tactics, and I'm sure that there are many officers on the force who feel that Jacko should go away and stay away. On the other hand, I could see Jackson deciding this himself (I'm not going back there, they'll persecute me again) and then planting this story as a way to provide cover for him. If people think the LAPD is out to get Jacko, then the decision to stay away from the States doesn't make him look like a coward, etc.

I happened to catch an old MadTV sketch the other day that had a hilarious send-up of MJ. He had a dance-off with "the man in the mirror" -- his old black self. By the end of the whole thing, he'd gone back for plastic surgery, and emerged as a hideous play-dough approximation of his old self, declaring "Michael Jackson is back!" I think this was from '97 or so, but still very, very funny.

[rockkid]

Hadn’t heard that either but the ent section of the local daily had a huge snap & accompanying story of his trip to a woman’s rest room in the Arab emirates some where.
I’m with ken on the planted cover story theory.

[JACkory]

kenholzman said:

And BTW, I just want to give some big praise to JAC on this subject. There was a time when he would have been flaming people left and right in the course of such a discussion, and now his tone is consistently even and respectful. To be able to discuss a subject which is so dear to your heart, and which promotes strong feelings on all sides, without losing sight of the fact that this is an issue on which reasonable people can draw different conclusions, is a great thing indeed. Kudos to you, my friend.

Thank you, Ken. Considering that you are among the upper echelon of posters whose opinions I respect, that is encouraging, indeed.

[poseidon]

jackory said:

kenholzman said:

And BTW, I just want to give some big praise to JAC on this subject. There was a time when he would have been flaming people left and right in the course of such a discussion, and now his tone is consistently even and respectful. To be able to discuss a subject which is so dear to your heart, and which promotes strong feelings on all sides, without losing sight of the fact that this is an issue on which reasonable people can draw different conclusions, is a great thing indeed. Kudos to you, my friend.

Thank you, Ken. Considering that you are among the upper echelon of posters whose opinions I respect, that is encouraging, indeed.

Hmmm...I remain skeptical. Need to start a 12 step program and call it Skeptics Anonymous (SA)....my home group would be Skeptics-R-Us...hardy har har.

[chrisfan]

I just discovered the freakiest thing. The high school love of my life is living down the street from me ... in a house I considered buying before i bought my house. The biggest irony is that when I was looking at houses, my realtor showed me a house that was right across the street from his parents house. The house wouldn't have worked for me anyway, but I told her, "I could never live there. It'd be like I was stalking the guy". Instead, he moved in down the street from me.

I was working on my Christmas card list, and wanted to send a card to my next door neighbors. Only problem was that I don't know their last name. So I went on the county auditor site to look up home ownership records to find their last name. I pulled up my entire street, and there is ex-love-of-my-life's name staring back at me. (he's down the street - not next door obviously). I remember when they moved in - I thought about walking down to welcome them to the neighborhood. WOuld have been rather freaky if I had ... talk to the nice lady who just moved in, and she says "Let me introduce you to my husband" as I say "holy shit!" This is just freaky.

[chrisfan]

BTW - this is the same guy that we all decided must be gay a few years ago.

[Ampage]

That is freaky/funny. Did you guys break up on good terms, like could you all be friends now?

I have an odd story too, but not that odd. So, you know how I have become internet friendly with the people from that radio show? Well, I know one of their friends and then found out one of them went to school with my nephew. So the day after Thanksgiving I go to the mall and am at the urinal and the guy next to me is one of the show people. That was a weird place to introduce myself so I passed. Well, yesterday I am having lunch with a friend and she says "Did you know that "the one guy on the show" is dating "a friends sister". Just blew me away, so now they will freak out for sure if they ever find out who I am. Its like I am stalking, but I swear I am not, lol!

[chrisfan]

It IS the same kind of thing! It's reverse stalking ... or something like that.

Regarding the ex who is stalking me ... If you put it in the context of everything happened 15 years ago, I'm sure we could be friends now. But I wouldn't say that things ended on good terms. Actually, that's not true. Things were really never on good terms, we just wanted them to be. Then eventually we lost touch which was the best thing for everyone. We had one of those very typical teenage relationships where we were friends one day, hooking up the next, backing off the next, etc etc. We never dated in the conventional "We're together and we're not with anyone else" way. There were times he cheated on other girls with me, times one of us thought we were dating and the other didn't, times he thought I cheated on him, but I thought I couldn't cheat if we weren't dating, etc. It was, in short, a typical unhealthy teenage relationship. I don't look at him with any ill-will now, and I"m sure he doens't have any ill-will towards me either. But it's the kind of thing where while we can both say "I've grown up A LOT since then", in the back of each of our minds, we'd probably wonder if the other one knew we'd both grown up. You know what I mean? Not to mention, how exactly do you explain who I am to his wife? "Yeah, that's the girl I told you about who I cheated on several girlfriends with ... you know,the one who hooked up with a few of my friends to get back at me, who was my best friend ever and the love of my life, only we both treated each other like crap" "Oh, her! Let's plan a block party with her!"

[chrisfan]

I just got two free tickets to the U2 concert this weekend! Simon and Garfunkel was probably a bigger deal, but this has to rank in the top 3 of the biggest shows I've gone to for free.