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Post by Mary on Aug 2, 2005 2:30:34 GMT -5
not sure i'd be quite so, um, confrontational as jac, but i'm sympathetic to his point (and i know he's speaking as a conservative, too, so i hope it's not just my obvious lefty bias here!!)
but i just don't understand when people say things like "The music biz is meant to be about having fun (well, after getting rich and scoring chicks, that is)" - how on earth can anyone discern the single and overriding purpose of something as giant and amorphous as "the music biz"?? "is meant" by who?? i mean, the history of art has always included deeply political elements, why should music be any different? why this arbitrary and rigid distinction between music as "mere" entertainment and serious political art? do you find picasso's 'guernica' irritating because it was a political, antiwar statement?? do you recoil from diego rivera's murals because they tried to express the condition of mexican peasants? do you hate the political elements in american roots music, like folk and blues? do you think woody guthrie should have dropped the populist shtick and concentrated on having fun and scoring chicks instead? if not, then why are you suddenly demanding that musicians today retreat from politics?
ultimately it seems to me that within every art form there is a subgenre of political expression - there are political paintings, political films, political political plays, political poems, and, of course, political music. if art is a form of personal expression, and politics forms a core part of somebody's personal convictions, then it only seems natural that politics would play a role in their artistic expression. what's the problem?
now - that's not to say i don't cringe when i hear some clueless musician or actor start loudly and arrogantly mouthing off about some political issue in a fashion that betrays their complete cluelessness. but i cringe equally when i hear a politician mouthing off cluelessly about a political issue. the problem isn't musicians who talk about politics, the problem is idiots who talk about politics.... and that includes not just musicians but also elected officials!!
on a final note, don't you think that sometimes political conviction can enhance a piece of music through its sense of passion or outrage or sadness or whatever? i just can't imagine that 'masters of war' (just a random example) would be anywhere near as compelling if it were about eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, even if it sounded exactly the same otherwise.
M
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Post by Mary on Aug 2, 2005 2:39:39 GMT -5
btw, the only music i wouldn't listen to because of political expression would be in cases where i thought the politics were utterly abhorrent - like some of the neo-nazi black metal stuff or explicitly racist oi! bands or whatever.
this is a dumb question but is elton john really very politically outspoken? i mean, duh, i know he's gay, but i never associated his music with political conviction before, until i read your post...
...and what exactly is bono's "contemptible" political stance, anyway? that he wants to relieve the debt of poor countries? that he wants to combat aids in africa? that he bemoans the history of violence and bloodshed in ireland? that he wants to relieve the suffering of poor people? i mean... i suppose you can disagree with his particular approach to some of these issues, but it seems a bit far-fetched to find any of them contemptible!! maybe i've missed something...
M
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Post by ScottsyII on Aug 2, 2005 7:38:36 GMT -5
I have to agree with Mary there... Bono may be in our faces, but I don't think his political beliefs are contemptible in any way... and I guess he is in our faces alot because he uses his profile to further what are, by and large, good and worthy causes... Generally speaking I think the guy has honourable intentions.
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Post by ken on Aug 2, 2005 8:29:39 GMT -5
Bono has great intentions. For that, he should be commended. Still hate his music.
The only reason this is even a concern is because of the consensus that artists lean to the left, and as it stands this is another talking point for the right to use in a simplistic debate. Of course, none of this brings to bear if the artist in question has any conservative leanings. O'Reilly used to go apeshit on the so called Hollywood elite all the time during the war build up and during the pre election process. However, he was also a primary spokesperson for Mel Gibson during his whole Passion of the Christ deal.
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Post by skvorisdeadsorta on Aug 2, 2005 10:19:33 GMT -5
I think politics is just one of many of the different facets of the human experience. Even if there is an artist who does a song that contain politics I don't agree with that I actually like, I usually just ignore it. To be totally honest, Fugazi, Sleater-Kinney, and maybe 3 or 4 others have actually spoken to me in a way that is close to my own personal politics so I'm pretty happy with that. There seems to be so much more about music that it seems silly to bemoan an artist for his own personal feelings.
I think most of it is that I just never liked certain artists like U2 to begin with. I didn't like the last Springsteen but not because of the politics, but because I just think he's starting to suck now.
I also like the MUSIC of Black Metal..........I know those guys are super right wing asses, but I ignore the lyrics because I can't understand a single freaking thing they are saying.
Also, If a band has politics close to my own, but sounds like U2, The Killers, Good Charlotte, or some other band like that, there's no way I'm touching them with a ten foot pole.
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Post by pissin2 on Aug 2, 2005 10:32:29 GMT -5
Politics in music is good. Unless you're Alice Cooper.
Summer's over. School's in buddy. Why don't you go back?
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Aug 2, 2005 10:33:38 GMT -5
An example of contemptible political views:
Bruce Springsteen..."Drive All Night": "I swear I'd drive all night again just to buy you some shoes..." Doesn't the Boss know there's a supply-and-demand imbalance in our fuel consumption that has contributed to the high cost of gasoline? A bit wasteful to make such a long distance journey for the sake of purchasing footwear, don't you think? And he says he'd do it AGAIN, so this implies that he's done it before. No wonder gas is over 2 bucks a gallon...Why doesn't he just buy 'em online and have 'em delivered overnight?
I'll never listen to Springsteen again.
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Post by chrisfan on Aug 2, 2005 10:40:14 GMT -5
I think Mary pretty much hit the nail on the head on this one, as far as my thoughts go.
I do not believe I could come close to making a blanket "Artists have no business commenting on politics" statement. There have been some particular ones that I think that could be said for - Britney Spears explaining why we should support the president, because he's like the president, comes to mind. But there are definitely some artists out there who know their shit when it comes to politics, and deserve to be heard. Bono has been mentioned, deservedly so.
To me, the difference (in comments they make, not in the art form here) comes in how they back up what they say. Someone like Bono is knowledgable on a subject, he's going to speak out on it, and if he's criticized, he's going to back up his beliefs. He's not going to whine about it. Contrast that to the infamous Dixie Chicks incident. I used to love the Dixie Chicks. I still love their music, and listen to it frequently. But as people, I lost total respect for Natalie Maines after that whole debacle. NOT for what she said, but for how she reacted to the criticism she endured for what she said. Rather than being strong and saying "I AM embarassed by the guy, and here are the reasons why", she whined, and played the scorned victim who'd been picked on. If a person is not willing to face dissent, they need to keep their opinions to themselves.
In addition to this, I think there are some artists / celebrities who speak out about politics because they believe in it passionately, and I respect them. There are others who I think do it for publicity, and I can't stand them. I'm sorry, but it's going to take a long long time for me to give the political arguments of George Clooney or Ben Affleck any weight - primarily because they consist of a quick statement and absolutely nothing to back it up. It's that "My voice should be listened to because I'm famous" attitude that I have no patience for.
As for political messages IN music, it's strange with me. There are some artists and songs which have messages that go against what I believe, but I like hte music anyway. There are other artists and songs that have messages which go against what I believe, and i can't stand the music. I have yet to figure out what makes the difference in my mind.
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 2, 2005 10:44:55 GMT -5
I don't know about the question posited by this board, but I'll tell you one thing, art certainly keeps me from liking politics.
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Post by shin on Aug 2, 2005 10:54:40 GMT -5
I don't believe I ever said I was. Have I stated one opinion of mine regarding world events on this board yet? Nope. As for who asked me to spout off, I did. It's my board. One that's not meant to be taken so damn seriously! Well some of us think you should just shut up and sing, cuz frankly we don't want to hear your incoherent views. Maybe you might want to consider it. |
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Post by chrisfan on Aug 2, 2005 10:56:35 GMT -5
This is where I stopped reading the post. |
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Post by ken on Aug 2, 2005 10:59:25 GMT -5
Me too, thorn. Me too.
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Post by pissin2 on Aug 2, 2005 11:05:09 GMT -5
Pearl Jam
Rage Against The Machine
System Of A Down
Fifteen
Bad Religion
Anti-Flag
Against All Authority
These are all great bands.
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 2, 2005 11:28:59 GMT -5
Best political band today? SOAD, imo
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Post by Mary on Aug 2, 2005 12:39:29 GMT -5
oh oh oh, of course, there are plenty of reasons why one could dislike U2 or bono apart from his specific political beliefs! i didn't mean to suggest anyone who wasn't listening to u2 thought that bono had "contemptible" beliefs - i was just referring explicitly back to art's comment! personally, i like u2, especially their earlier stuff, but lately i've found their music more and more rote and less and less inspiring, so i'm no huge u2 fan or anything... don't own a single album by them post-achtung baby anymore... and i still think war is really their finest moment...
i can also be turned off by the method in which political beliefs are expressed, even if i agree with them. if something seems particularly strident or dogmatic or sloganeering, i tend to find it offputting - that's part of what always left me with a bad taste when it came to RATM - it wasn't the extremity of their politics but the humorless, polemical, and excessively didactic means of expression that rubbed me the wrong way.
and if a band sucks, it sucks. i don't care if their politics are 100% in agreement with mine.
so ultimately, my position is: if a band is already good, and they have strong political convictions which are eloquently expressed and integrated into the music, then i think the politics can enhance the music. but politics certainly ain't enough - cause then you're just talkin' about propaganda...
Cheers,
M
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