The Velvet Underground

[rockysigman]

Alright, I guess I gotta chime in on this. I suppose my rankings are pretty meaningless, as, as you'd probably all I expect, I give all four of these albums somewhere between 5.5 and 6 stars out of...um...5. Honestly though, I actually rarely listen to the Velvet Underground nowadays. Not really because my affection for them has weakened much. More because there was a period that I listened to them so constantly and so intensely that if I feel like hearing a VU song now, I can pretty much hear every detail of it in my head. I know these songs way better than anyone really should.

1) The Velvet Underground and Nico--Everything that Mary said about "Heroin" is correct, but if that doesn't convince you, then "Venus in Furs" should do the trick. This album was cut in early 1966. Try to get your head wrapped around that.

2) The Velvet Underground--Might be the finest four songs to open an album ever. "Pale Blue Eyes" and "I'm Set Free" have the most beautiful guitar solos I've ever heard. "The Murder Mystery" might not have come off as perfectly as they'd hoped, but it is still one of the coolest ideas ever set to record. When I was in eight grade, my English teacher would allow people to bring in music to play while everyone read on Fridays. Once I brought this album in and put on "The Murder Mystery". It was turned off by nearly unanimous vote before it was through the second verse. This album is perfect.

3) White Light/White Heat--Too busy sucking on a ding-dong.

4) Loaded--I've gotten flack from people over the years for ranking this last among the studio albums. I do think it's a damn near perfect album, but "Lonesome Cowboy Bill" and "Train 'Round the Bend" are the only filler tracks on any of the four main studio albums, and for that it's got to be ranked last. I do like those songs, by the way, but compare those to the lesser tracks on either of the other 3 albums (nothing on the first album really, "Here She Comes Now" on WL/WH, "That's the Story of My Life" on the s/t) and it's obvious that, although the best songs on this album are unbelievable, it just isn't as solid from top to bottom.

And no, I'd rather not talk much about Squeeze. I'd love to say that it's not as bad as history has made it out to be, but it's really not that much better.

And Mary, I'm just going to assume that when you say you've never really liked White Light/White Heat, you just mean relative to the other albums, as I'm just too exausted to do any smiting today.

[Kensterberg]

Well I definitely agree with Mary about Heroin (arguably rock and roll's finest single song), but I'll still give The Velvet Underground the top spot, by a very slight margin. And this is largely b/c I rarely listen to European Son or the The Black Angel's Death Song, while I can find The Murder Mystery to be flawed by still intriguing. The rest of VU+Nico is absolutely perfect, and I can't argue with anyone picking it ... and in part I wanted to vote for The Velvet Underground just so that it wouldn't be ignored.

As for Loaded, I can't disagree with Rocky more vigorously here. I think Lonesome Cowboy Bill and Train Up Around the Bend are fine songs which more than hold their own (despite the fact that Yule's vocals on the former are a bit weak) with the "lesser tracks" off any VU album. In fact, I'd rather listen to those than almost anything from WL/WH.

Speaking of which ... I do agree with Mary about listening to the second VU album. I recognize the experimentalism and artistic breakthroughs of this record, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy actually hearing it. Bowie's cover of the title track beats the VU original, the rest of the songs on side one are "interesting" but not really enjoyable, and Sister Ray is best described as, well, interminable. It's still a five star record for its historic value and influence, but it's the last VU album I'd put on ... although I once played it at 3:00 a.m. while extremely depressed, and it sounded absolutely perfect, so maybe the problem isn't the record but the fact that I'm a little better adjusted at this point in my life, and so can't fully appreciate its full impact.

And I've got to agree with Drum that VU (or any collection of outtakes from '68-'70) would top most artist's career peaks. Foggy Notion, the original (superior) rendition of Satellite of Love, The Ocean ... yeah, there's one hell of a "lost album" in there.

[rockysigman]

VU is probably has the best songs of the two mid-'80s outtake records, but I actually find Another View to be more interesting. Actually though, I'm not sure if I'd feel the same way if I were listening to them at the time of their release, as the stuff that I find most interesting on Another View are the instrumentals, but those might not be as intriguing if I didn't know the vocal versions (I used to really love playing "Guess I'm Falling in Love" with some guys I used to play with in high school--improvising a solo on that song might be the single most pleasurable moment I've experienced playing guitar). Too bad they never really finished any proper studio versions of those songs with full on vocals (although there are two very good and very different takes of "Ride Into the Sun" and both are awesome. "Guess I'm Falling in Love" is presented well enough with the live version on the boxed set, but I'd really love to hear some vocals over the amazingly powerful guitars on that instrumental version. And I have a cool bootleg live version "I'm Gonna Move Right In" but a lot of the words are awfully hard to understand). "Hey Mr. Rain" (both versions) has long been a favorite of mine.

The Loaded demos from the PSAS boxed set are also spectacular, but, as is the nature of demos, sound rather incomplete. "Satellite of Love" is pretty great though. I like it on Transformer a lot, but its cool to see that the song translated well as a rocker in addition to the schmaltzy version that it become known for. The boxed set also has the superior version of "Ocean", IMO.

I really like the WL/WH demos from the boxed set, for that matter as well. "It's All Right (the Way That You Live)" is definately among my favorite not-quite-completed VU songs.

Oh, and I also wanted to comment on some of the stuff on the Loaded--Fully Loaded Edition set. Great stuff on there, not just as a historical document, but a lot of the stuff on there is rather enjoyable to listen to in its own right. The doo wop intro to one version of "Rock and Roll", that supercharged rawk version of "Head Held High". I even really like the uneven organ-based version of "Oh! Sweet Nuthin'". And the VU's version of "Love Makes You Feel Ten Foot Tall" really wipes the floor with the also very good version that Lou did later on, and also showed yet another side of the band that wasn't really expressed much elsewhere.

[rockysigman]

I think my...well, I don't want to call it an aversion to Loaded, but my lesser feelings toward that album than to their other albums, is pretty much due to the context in which I fell in love with the VU. I do love that album, and I think it's probably the best album of its kind by anyone. But when I first heard the Velvet Underground, they were the first real noisy, subversive type of band I'd ever really given a good listen to. And it totally fucking blew my mind. And "Lonesome Cowboy Bill" is just such a total antithesis of all that, musically, lyrically, and everything.

And every time I listen to that album, I can't help but wonder what it would have sounded like if Moe Tucker had played on it at all and if Sterling Morrison were more committed to it. Hell, for that matter if Lou Reed was more committed to it. It's an amazing album, but suffers in my mind because of what could have been. Which is really rather unfair I guess -- an album should be judged on its own merits, not by what someone would have liked it to have been -- but it's just hard not to think about those things. Still damn near perfect though.

[bowiglou]

g'morning all......actually, I was into Lou Reed before VU, though I do remember the banana cover LP in the 60s and had some curiosity..my surf buddy saw VU and Nico in the 60s at the Civic Center in San Diego, and said Cale was out there and Nico was a knockout..that being said, though I do adore VU and Nico, the self-titled, and many cuts from Loaded, I really didn't get into VU well past my infatuation with Lou Reed...in fact, the first VU albums I bought were not till the 80s when there were some compilation albums released that were damn good........then I bought Loaded, and when I joined these boards I bought the box set...and then the Quinne tapes......so, though I can list numerous VU songs I adore, I still have to admit that Lou's solo material (Transformer, Berlin, New York, New Sensations, etc.) and Cales (Fear, Honi Soit, etc.) seem to resonate more than VU.....

I am well aware of the influence of VU and the cohorts at the Factory, and yes, excepting the Doors (and maybe the Fugs and many of the unknown garage bands at that time), they were the antithesis of the summer of love; but if you put me on a desert island (hopefully with surfboard and swim goggles please) and you forced me to pick between the top two VU albums OR the top two Lou Reed albums, I'm probably going for the latter!!!

[Rit]

i happen to like "European Son" and "The Black Angel Death Song", as well as "Sister Ray". I see where Rocky's coming from - the context of how i got into the VU makes it easier for me to appreciate the earlier albums as opposed to Loaded

The concensus here seems to be that the VU are alright, but WL/WH is interminable, except for Ken. I'm totally with Ken on this. WL/WH is one continuous exhalation of energy. I was thinking about why "Black Angel Death Song" or "European Son" or "I Heard Her Call My Name" or "Lady Godiva's Operation" or "Sister Ray" simply doesn't find acceptance, even among otherwise rabid VU fans. The best i can come up with is 2 possibilities:

(a.) the ones that do find those songs okay are noise addicts to begin with, pure and simple, and appreciate jarring tones and sonorities.

(b.) everyone who dismisses those kinds of VU songs are missing a key subtext. they're missing the spiritual malaise. take the following lyric from "Black Angel Death Song"...

And if epiphany’s terror reduced you to shame
Have your head bobbed and weaved
Choose a side to be on
If the stone glances off
Split didactics in two
Leave the colors of the mouse trails
Don’t scream, try between
If you choose.. if you choose, try to lose
For the loss of remain come and start

Quite apart from the Dylanesque attempts to see simple angst/alienation as really a symbol of deeper spiritual malaise, Reed seems intent on evoking religious metaphor in various subtle and not so subtle ways.

One of the indications of this is using poetry to hint that the souls of people are fallen from an earlier state of grace, and that we're all individual fiery pieces & shards of the gods (of God, if you prefer) that have fallen to our knees in the urban trappings of modern life. Don't forget Reed's surprising lyric from the third album:

Jesus, help me find my proper place
Help me in my weakness
’cos I’m falling out of grace
Jesus

So, what am i trying to say? simply that those awkward, seemingly difficult, moments in the Velvets' catalogue are Lou Reed's appropriation of poetic tropes rooted in his understanding of the soul as fallen object, and his obsessive empathy with anybody in a fallen state. Which turns out to be large enough to embrace all of society, which is how you can get songs as wide-eyed as "Rock and Roll" right through to more narrower concerns such as "Venus In Furs" -- sadomasochism recreated as an act of forgiveness ("..Strike, dear mistress, and cure his heart..)

And a song like "European Son"? what about it's near rabid sonic squalls, musically speaking? Consider the following quote from Reed in talking about one of the ways he viewed Sterling Morrison's guitar playing style: "When he played his passionate solos, I had always seen him as a mythic Irish hero, flames shooting from his nostrils".... far from merely being difficult for the sake of being difficult, the Velvets were hell bent on representing catharsis and metaphoric release in as visceral a form as possible. Hence the traumatic barrage of "Sister Ray" - not just some exercise in turning up as loud as possible (though there is that element of prankishness to it certainly, coming out of the interplay between Cale, Morrison and Reed whilst they played together in that studio room that day).

to conclude point b, to miss these undertones in the Velvets, is to miss more than half the band. They, like the Doors, tried to embody poetry in rock music, but unlike the Doors, they borrowed strictly from poetry of a type where the unifying thread was recognition that there is a soul, and it is either fallen or traumatically split in half. The Doors, by comparison, never really spoke of "soul" in quite this way.

[Rit]

ah fuck it. i've been thinking waaay too much about this shit.
i'm taking a break.
;D

[rockysigman]

One never can think about the VU too much. It's good for you.

I definately understand why "European Son" and "Sister Ray" are difficult for some to swallow, but I love them nonetheless. I don't do it often, but there's definately that type of day I have every so often where nothing will make things better than to crank up "Sister Ray" as loud as my stereo will go and just take it all in. And there's a whole lot more to it than just noise. The musical interplay at times is spectacular, and the story, while perverse, is quite interesting. And you can just picture them all crammed into that studio, fighting to be heard, cranking it up and cranking it up and trying to drown each other out. It's fucking beautiful.

Unfortunately I don't have any Cale-era live versions of "Sister Ray", but I have several Yule-era ones, and they're all pretty interesting. That song was amazingly versitle, with some readings being gentle as can be while others are supercharged and loud. Until the later days when "What Goes On" became the improv centerpiece of the set, "Sister Ray" was really something to hear.

[luke]

I go with Velvet Underground. VU & Nico probably has some better tunes than anything on VU (except for "Pale Blue Eyes", which was strangely the first song I danced with my wife to), but what it comes down to, I guess, is that I fucking HATE Nico's voice. It ruins the entire album for me. So yeah, I guess in that aspect, I like White Light/White Heat as my number two.

[rockysigman]

Luke, have you ever heard the live album from the '93 reunion tour? Lou's vocals are horrendous throughout, but John takes the lead on "Femme Fatale" and "All Tomorrow's Parties" and they sound pretty stellar. Especially ATP.

Dude, you chose a song about adultery as your first dance with your wife? That's pretty weird.

[Kensterberg]

Luke -- was it your first dance "ever" (as in early on in your relationship) or your first dance at your wedding? If it was the former, that's kind of cool ... but if it was the latter, then I'm with Rocky, that's pretty weird.

But Pale Blue Eyes is one of my all time favorite songs ... love Sterling's guitar work in it as well. One of the most beautiful songs in rock and roll.

[luke]

kenholzman said:

Luke -- was it your first dance "ever" (as in early on in your relationship) or your first dance at your wedding? If it was the former, that's kind of cool ... but if it was the latter, then I'm with Rocky, that's pretty weird.

Well, Ken, it was both, which is kinda part of the reason it turned out to be the wedding song. We thought the whole "first dance" thing was a bit cheesy, and we knew we'd both feel really stupid dancing in front of all those people, so we joked around about what to dance to until we came up with a song that was classy but super inappropriate. It's hard to explain...guess it's something just between she and I. The song was definitely more her idea than mine, though, but I certainly wasn't complaining.

And Rocky, I will most certainly do some downloading for those live tunes...

[rockysigman]

luke said:

And Rocky, I will most certainly do some downloading for those live tunes...

If you have any trouble tracking them down, just track me down on AIM and I'll be happy to send them your way.

[bowiglou]

Devils Advocate Perspective:


Velvet Underground were nothing more than Burroughs-has beens that borrowed heavily from many beat-type writers, and the only element that separted them from others was their debauched viewpoints..and the fact they were fortunate to be perceived as unique at that time.

[phil]

And they looked good with dark glasses ... !!