JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Oct 31, 2006 12:17:50 GMT -5
JAC -- I think you're confusing "important" with "meaningful." An important album is (IMHO) one that has an objective significance in music history or development, while a meaningful album is one that the listener finds subjective significance in. Thus, I can argue that Murmer is an important album, and that Up is a very meaningful album to me. What makes Murmur an important album? That it influenced the course of enough bands that the trail of copy-cat jangle pop groups is a long one? Why is it important? I love Murmur but I wouldn't say it's "important". Now meaningful is a better term. |
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Post by Kensterberg on Oct 31, 2006 12:19:15 GMT -5
Yep, if you remove Beck from music history, nothing really changes. He just hasn't been influential, either musically or socially. Ergo, he is not "important," although many people may find (at least some of) his albums to be "meaningful."
Me, I think he's just the ultimate ironic hipster. Arguably the least sincere artist in modern music. (With the exception of one album -- was that Sea Change?)
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Post by Kensterberg on Oct 31, 2006 12:23:40 GMT -5
Murmer influenced the sound of a great many bands (though no one ever exactly copied it). It also broke open the burgeoning scene in Athens and up through the Carolinas. Bands like Let's Active and Love Tractor got deals in large part b/c of R.E.M.'s (relative) success. And just as (if not more) significantly, R.E.M. showed that a band could be on a "minor-major" label (IRS) and maintain their creative integrity. R.E.M. were also one of the stalwarts of eighties college radio -- indeed, the format owed a huge debt to the band.
These are all objective measures which quantify Murmer's importance. It marks a signpost for the beginning of what we would now call the American indie scene. Without Murmer (and R.E.M. in general) you don't get Pavement, Dinosaur, Jr., and bunches of others. That is "importance."
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Post by samplestiltskin on Oct 31, 2006 12:40:10 GMT -5
Since when is sincerity the criterion for importance? What I love most about Beck is that he is so sincerely absurd.
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Post by Kensterberg on Oct 31, 2006 12:43:48 GMT -5
Beck's irony is not related to his lack of importance. He's not important b/c he hasn't influenced people, musically or socially. He's not important b/c if you remove him from our cultural landscape, you don't change any of the contours.
Beck may be meaningful, lots of people may love him, but he doesn't have any cultural or musical weight. His work is the definition of "unimportant albums" that may or may not rock.
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Post by Galactus on Oct 31, 2006 12:46:33 GMT -5
Ken, I think Beck is actually quite sincere about his music...I can see ironic hipster but I don't get insincerity from him.
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Post by Thorngrub on Oct 31, 2006 12:57:59 GMT -5
ok, I'm back, and I wanna say, yesterday I was listening to a couple of albums, and I've got it boiled down, now. The most unabashedly IMPORTANT album of the 90s has been narrowed down, in my view, to one of these 2 sadly overlooked masterpieces:   I am completely serious, here. #1, Mellow Gold: C'mon people, poor white boy hiphop meets rap in an explosive combination of gutter poetry and phat ass beats, this record is an indispensable piece of 90s history that would foreshadow the immense significanse and popularity of this self-professed "loser". The boy broke open worldwide in years to come, and is today accepted by critics and fans and even the general populace (I daresay) as a bonafide musical artist with something genuine to offer. If you don't agree but happen to like Beck, I can only suggest it has been too long since you actually put this CD into your player. So do it, now, and find out just how fantastic, playful, and straight -up creative this album actually is. Oh yeah: and did I mention it rocks? W/a downhome psycho groove to boot. #2, rage against the machine: I'm going to say it, this band WAS the most volatile force in MUSIC period during the 90s, that is that, if you disagree well we're all entitled to our opinions, but THIS marriage of white boy rap fervor and explosive rock bombast was not merely virtuosic in its execution, but truly a revolutionary force in popular music (as far as that goes). The lyrics are by far the most incendiant, cut-to-Truth's-bone I have ever heard, these are not words to ignore while singin along (although everyone does ignore the message, that is), and I for one can virtually guarantee that the single reason we have not seen hide nor hair of their volatile frontman is because he has conscientiously opted to "lay low" for a spell so that the same thing that happened to JOHN LENNON doesn't happen to his ass. Think I'm kidding -? Think again. When it comes to deciding between these two superheated discs that dropped like a bomb into the midst of the 90s, I'm going to have to say, that in terms of overall "importance" to the human race (insofar as a medium like popular music can affect it goes), the Grand Prize goes hands-down to rage against the fucking machine, bitches. Whereas, in terms of general cross-seeding (merging white & black) and overall impact across a wide demographic of fans, I think BECK comes in on rage's coattails, with his far more laid-back mentality and chill factor. So there you have it. Somewhere in between these 2 forces lies the most important music the 90s offered up (straight up). |
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Post by Galactus on Oct 31, 2006 13:30:09 GMT -5
I think it's indisputable that Nevermind & Ok Computer are the two most important albums of the nineties. Quite simply upon release they changed the rules, period.
Five albums more important to the nineties for the same reasons ascribed to Mellow Gold
In no particular order
1. Beastie Boys - Check Your Head (1992)
2. Blur - Parklife (1994)
3. Sonic Youth - Dirty (1992)
4. Beck - Odelay (1996)
5. Uncle Topelo - March 16-20, 1992 (1992)
Mind you when until Odelay, Beck was considered a one hit wonder destined to remain an underground cult figure.
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Post by samplestiltskin on Oct 31, 2006 13:42:05 GMT -5
Maybe it's just me and I'm too young to really get it, but I've seen many entirely different "worlds" of music than the few represented in our community here. In defense of Beck (and Al Hansen and David Lynch and Skinny Puppy etc etc), their work and art were far more influential in my world and the formation of my brain than the grand stand-bys Clash and Beatles. I just grew up needing underground cult artists for influences.
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Post by samplestiltskin on Oct 31, 2006 13:44:42 GMT -5
I dunno, that didn't come out quite right, but I'm at work and a bit distracted.
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Post by Kensterberg on Oct 31, 2006 13:46:04 GMT -5
I think it's indisputable that Nevermind & Ok Computer are the two most important albums of the nineties. Quite simply upon release they changed the rules, period. Five albums more important to the nineties for the same reasons ascribed to Mellow Gold In no particular order 1. Beastie Boys - Check Your Head (1992) 2. Blur - Parklife (1994) 3. Sonic Youth - Dirty (1992) 4. Beck - Odelay (1996) 5. Uncle Topelo - March 16-20, 1992 (1992) Mind you when until Odelay, Beck was considered a one hit wonder destined to remain an underground cult figure. I agree with four of these five, and (of course) with Nevermind and OK Computer. I don't see Beck as important. He follows trends, he doesn't start them. He puts other people's ideas together, but no one else follows where he goes. I stand by my original assesment of Beck -- remove him from the nineties, and the decade is almost exactly the same. |
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Post by Galactus on Oct 31, 2006 13:54:41 GMT -5
I think it's indisputable that Nevermind & Ok Computer are the two most important albums of the nineties. Quite simply upon release they changed the rules, period. Five albums more important to the nineties for the same reasons ascribed to Mellow Gold In no particular order 1. Beastie Boys - Check Your Head (1992) 2. Blur - Parklife (1994) 3. Sonic Youth - Dirty (1992) 4. Beck - Odelay (1996) 5. Uncle Topelo - March 16-20, 1992 (1992) Mind you when until Odelay, Beck was considered a one hit wonder destined to remain an underground cult figure. I agree with four of these five, and (of course) with Nevermind and OK Computer. I don't see Beck as important. He follows trends, he doesn't start them. He puts other people's ideas together, but no one else follows where he goes. I stand by my original assesment of Beck -- remove him from the nineties, and the decade is almost exactly the same. I included Odelay say that it's more important then Mellow Gold, I still don't think it's terribly important but if I'm to agree that any of his albums are it'll be that one. For the record and because I'm a list geek, my ranking of Beck ablums- 1. Sea Change 2. One Foot In The Grave 3. Mellow Gold 4. Mutations 5. Odelay 6. Guero 7. Stereopathicsoulmanuer 8. Midnight Vultures I'm not sure about the new one yet, i'm think between Odelay & Guero... |
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Post by Thorngrub on Oct 31, 2006 14:37:49 GMT -5
JAC -- I think you're confusing "important" with "meaningful." An important album is (IMHO) one that has an objective significance in music history or development, while a meaningful album is one that the listener finds subjective significance in. Thus, I can argue that Murmer is an important album, and that Up is a very meaningful album to me. HOlzman's on the right track, here |
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Post by maarts on Oct 31, 2006 14:43:11 GMT -5
The only importance I can award Beck is that he blurred the edges even further in a time where so many musical styles were amalgamating into something relatively new. It hasn't always resonated with me and sometimes by listening to him it almost feels a bit like style over impact but the way he constructs his songs is pretty interesting. Also the fact that his albums tend to differ in the way they sound indicates that he always searches for new inroads into the pop landscape. But with rock and roll not being able to explode with something new and so many artists and bands expanding their musical horizons outside the square they usually vacate in, it's difficult to stand out. Guero and The Information weren't exactly groundbreaking but quite pleasant but that ultimately is an insult to him.
Still, he was one of the first to use this home-slacker-cut n paste-indiepop to good effect.
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Post by Thorngrub on Oct 31, 2006 14:47:06 GMT -5
Man, I dig both ded's & holzman's perspectives on this issue. I totally hear what you're sayin' ded about the relative importance of Odelay over Beck's auspicious debut, and also, I wholeheartedly agree that the Beastie's CHECK YOUR HEAD (probably) does surpass Beck in overall cultural impact, ergo 'importance'. So your comments have been duly noted.
Holzman, the one thing I'd say to your allegation that "removing Beck from the landscape of the 90s affects nothing" is, that may be actually correct - for the 90s - but in my view (and I don't feel I'm stretching things at all, here) the truth of the matter is, his overall importance hasn't even fully taken root yet. Yes, I am simply suggesting that if Beck were "removed" from the picture, the future of music would be irrevocably altered. And I don't mean in that common "butterfly effect" way where if you removed anyone it would cause long-term changes; I mean that if you were to remove BECK from the 90s, it would more seriously affect the future of music than if you were to remove, say, Candlebox or a whole slew of other more inherently unimportant acts.
I.E, I honestly believe that Beck's importance is still simmering. . . . still on the oven, gettin spices added, bein stirred up nice & slow, taste -tested w/each new album.
What I'm saying is- - BECK is FAR more important than any who dismiss him today could realize. Ain't it true though samples ?
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