Religion, Theology, and all that good stuff

[Thorngrub]

er, that's interesting you see that I see things that way, but ask yourself, how couldn't I?

*reaches out and touches the wall*

There it is. *looks through a telescope* There are the stars.

*looks at the moon*, wump! They it is.

*breathes the air* . . . this compound I breathe is not a figment of my imagination, in my opinion! I believe it is quantifiably measurable to us . . . and that it exists seperate from us. i.e, eliminate ME and the air remains (for others to breathe).

Does a tree make a sound when it falls if no one is around to hear it ?
It's a trick question, if you think about it.


also rit, when you said "there's a little distinction i want to make here.. you envisioned a point of view in relation to an eternal being or eternal history (eternity).",

I must also make a distinction, and that is, that NOwhere in my tractates have I even suggested the concept of "eternity"! THAT is a word or label you are using of course to pinpoint that "other" source from whence I suggested our entire Universe might have originated from -- but realize YOU put the term "eternity" into my explanation.

I, personally, don't believe in 'eternity', but admittedly, only because the human brain cannot comprehend it, therefore why bother trying? It is, in effect, a waste of energy. Hence my decision to direct my perceptions at things we can comprehend, in our own terms: the universe around us.

A limited universe.

That said, I still think I know what you meant by using those terms, so, for the sake of argument and not splitting hairs semantically, I'll accept your observation and respond thusly (to your addendum that "all we can know is human centered"):


Although I do not dispute that "God" has a "human face" and that our metaphysics are "human bound" and that the edges of our universe are "human measured", I still maintain that there are no limits to what we are able to perceive via such helpful variables as leaps of faith, for instance. There must also be an element of gambling in our endeavors to suss out the way of things: Trial and Error, so to speak.

What I dispute is your claim that "The only real "outer space" available to us is inner space ". For one I have a real hard time with that word "only". Who's to say ? From what we ourselves have discussed, it is obvious to me there have already been established two "outer space"s: 1/the exterior physical universe we have found ourselves in and 2/our 'inner' universe that you mention.

That said, I do not rule out that both these universes are one and the same.

As for my "physical" connection to ideas, well sure. I can't help the fact my consciousness is trapped within a physical body, nor can I help the fact that this physical raiment is trapped within a physical universe!

[Rit]

heh. Your response handled everything i was asking.

and you compellingly made the argument that we are trapped in the physical world, so how could we be wrong in our explorations of the physical world.... also, i liked that Trial and Error approach to attaining knowledge. t'is true.

[Rit]

i'll get back to you on this when i get home. let's keep this discussion running over a few days, adding when we're able to.

[sisyphus]

definititely. i have to go to work now, but i'll be back to this later on after dark.

[Thorngrub]

Thanks you two. That was a most pleasant, and informative, exchange.

[sisyphus]

damn. i just saw a movie that really has me thinking. message boards put me into a categorical mindset, though, so i'll have to go post on the movie board although i feel said movie's essence was purdy damn spiritual. in any case, here are two poems i typed up earlier from one of May Swenson's books. she's brilliant. the first one beautifully articulates the dynamic between those inner and outer worlds discussed earlier....the micro and macrocosmic twisted thoughtfully into a figure eight..

Flying Home From Utah

Forests are branches of a tree lying down,
its blurred trunk in the north.
Farms are fitted pieces of a floor,

tan and green tiles that get smoother,
smaller, the higher we fly.
Heel-shaped dents of water I know are deep

from here appear opaque, of bluish glass.
Curl after curl, rivers are coarse locks
unraveling southward over the land;

hills, rubbed felt, crumpled bumps
of antlers pricking from young bucks’ heads.
Now towns are sscratches here and there

on a wide, brown-bristled hide.
Long roads rayed out from the sores of cities
begin to fester and crawl with light --

above them the plane is a passing insect
that eyes down there remark, forget
in the moment it specks the overcast.

It climbs higher. Clouds become ground.
Pillows of snow meet, weld into ice.
Alone on a moonlit stainless rink

glides the ghost of a larva, the shadow
of our plane. Lights go on
in the worm-belly where we sit;

it becomes the world, and seems to cease
to travel -- only vibrates, stretched out tense
in the tank of night.

The room of my mind replces the long, lit room.
dream I point my eye over a leaf
and fascinate my gaze upon its veins:

A sprawled leaf, many-fingered, its radial
ridges limber, greeen -- but curled,
tattered, pocked, the brown palm

nibbled by insects, nestled in by worms:
One leaf of a tree that’s one tree of a forest,
that’s the branch of the vein of a leaf

of a tree. Perpetual worlds
within, upon, above the world, the world
a leaf within a wilderness of worlds.

~May Swenson



The Cloud-Mobile


Above my face is a map.
Continents form and fade.
Blue countries, made
on a white sea, are erased,
and white countries traced
on a blue sea.

It is a map that moves:
faster than real,
but so slow.
Only my watching proves
that island has being,
or that bay.

It is a model of time.
mountains are wearing away,
coasts cracking,
the ocean spills over,
then new hllls
heap into view
with river-cuts of blue
between them.

It is a map of change.
This is the way things are
with a stone or a star.
This is the way things go,
hard or soft,
swift or slow.

~May Swenson

on other thing, today i was thinking about the jewish proverbs and how "god" was constantly warning them not to be foolish. i started thinking about the context in which i remember some of these pronouncements and it started to become apparent that foolishness might mean insincerity. essentially, it is "foolish" to be insincere, snide, and sarcastic. (but hey, everything in moderation, right..?) and i don't mean in your everyday playful conversation.... i mean that if you're looking to grow as a person to a higher (6th stage of moral development*) level of ethics, you wouldn't waste time sending insincerity out into the world and you'd do your best to honestly search for growth, acknowledge your faults and wrongs, and strive to change or make them right....

* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

[Rit]

the first Swenson poem was lovely, lyrical.

level of ethics, you wouldn't waste time sending insincerity out into the world and you'd do your best to honestly search for growth, acknowledge your faults and wrongs, and strive to change or make them right....

yup. i agree that this is spiritual living.
i need to read the Proverbs sometime. all i have as context is Blake's Proverbs. i also want to read Isaiah. don't ask me why. the fact that he's being termed a "prophet" intruiges me. what does it mean to be a prophet. why is he qualified as such.

[Thorngrub]

What I've gotten from Isaiah, is that he was the guy who prophecied that severe judgment awaited any and all nations that would persecute Judah - today Israel / Zion / Jerusalem / the Holy city. But what made him interesting is, he also prophecied a judgment against Israel itself, claiming that it was not exempt from God's wrath, should the people of Jerusalem slip and bring false idols before them.

He maintained that God held supreme lordship over ALL nations, and that He chose the people of Jerusalem as merely the spokespersons of his Word, and not the elite or elect "holy ones".

Isaiah was concerned with the ultimate establishment of God's Kingdom on Earth, wherein all rulers of nations strove to live under His will. I think he was a badass.

[JACkory]

thorny said:

What I've gotten from Isaiah, is that he was the guy who prophecied that severe judgment awaited any and all nations that would persecute Judah - today Israel / Zion / Jerusalem / the Holy city. But what made him interesting is, he also prophecied a judgment against Israel itself, claiming that it was not exempt from God's wrath, should the people of Jerusalem slip and bring false idols before them.

He maintained that God held supreme lordship over ALL nations, and that He chose the people of Jerusalem as merely the spokespersons of his Word, and not the elite or elect "holy ones".

Isaiah was concerned with the ultimate establishment of God's Kingdom on Earth, wherein all rulers of nations strove to live under His will. I think he was a badass.

I try to stay out of these discussions anymore, but I thought I'd chime in here, having read Isaiah more than a few times.
Just wanted to say that God chose the Jews to be more than "merely the spokespersons of his Word". Jesus Himself said that "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22). It was from Abraham's seed that the Messiah would come. Yes, Israel was judged and punished along with all the nations mentioned in Isaiah. That happened because they had all chosen to worship the gods of the other nations, abandoning the LORD and His covenant.
As far as I know the Jews weren't out to convert anyone, so there was no need for them to be "spokespersons". The prophets, however, were spokespersons but their message was primarally (not always) addressed to the Jews and their prophecies were always new revelation from God.

Okay, I'm out.

[Thorngrub]

Thanks, JAC. My understanding of it was vague, at best.

[sisyphus]

"Real confession has no relation to confession in the churches. It's essense consists not of the neccessity to see one's own defects as 'sinful,' but as a hinderence to personal development. The pain of discovering your chief defect is like the shock of receiving a slap in the face. A person must find the strength not to run away from this pain, but boldly to turn the other cheek; that is, to listen and accept further truth about oneself. We must reach a depth in ourselves from which it is possible to face ourselves sincerely."

~ Mr. Gurdjieff

[Thorngrub]

Amen.

[phil]

... the Baylor University Institute for Studies of Religion has been getting lots of ink with its concept — click here www.baylor.edu/isreligion/index.php?id=40634 for the home page on this — that Americans basically have four different approaches to God and that, amazingly enough, which God they say they believe in tells you a lot about their lives and (gasp!) their politics. Yes, I fear that this is all linked to the phenomenon that faith is most important when it affects the ballot box.

So veteran religion-beat specialist Cathy Lynn Grossman at USA Today was given quite a bit of space to roll out many of the details. The key is that her package actually gives readers a chance to grasp the basic structure of the Baylor study.

Here is that heart of the story, the kind of background that reporters don’t get to offer very often. This is rather long, so here is a slightly condensed version. The key voice here is Baylor’s Christopher Bader:

• The Authoritarian God (31.4% of Americans overall, 43.3% in the South) is angry at humanity’s sins and engaged in every creature’s life and world affairs. He is ready to throw the thunderbolt of judgment down on “the unfaithful or ungodly.” . . .

Those who envision God this way “are religiously and politically conservative people, more often black Protestants and white evangelicals,” Bader says.

“(They) want an active, Christian-values-based government with federal funding for faith-based social services and prayer in the schools.” They’re also the most inclined to say God favors the USA in world affairs (32.1% vs. 18.6% overall).

• The Benevolent God (23% overall, 28.7% in the Midwest) still sets absolute standards for mankind in the Bible. More than half (54.8%) want the government to advocate Christian values.

But this group, which draws more from mainline Protestants, Catholics and Jews, sees primarily a forgiving God, more like the father who embraces his repentant prodigal son in the Bible. . . .

They’re inclined (68.1%) to say caring for the sick and needy ranks highest on the list of what it means to be a good person. . . .

• The Critical God (16% overall, 21.3% in the East) has his judgmental eye on the world, but he’s not going to intervene, either to punish or to comfort.

. . . Those who picture a critical God are significantly less likely to draw absolute moral lines on hot-button issues such as abortion, gay marriage or embryonic stem cell research.

For example, 57% overall say gay marriage is always wrong compared with 80.6% for those who see an authoritarian God, and 65.8% for those who see God as benevolent. For those who believe in a critical God, it was 54.7%.

• The Distant God (24.4% overall, 30.3% in the West) is “no bearded old man in the sky raining down his opinions on us,” Bader says. Followers of this God see a cosmic force that launched the world, then left it spinning on its own.

This has strongest appeal for Catholics, mainline Protestants and Jews. It’s also strong among “moral relativists,” those least likely to say any moral choice is always wrong, and among those who don’t attend church, Bader says.

Only 3.8% of this group say embryonic stem cell research is always wrong, compared with 38.5% of those who see an authoritarian God, 22.7% for those who see God as benevolent and 13.2% who see God as critical but disengaged.

[phil]

LoLoLoL ! I never knew that this Québec sect reached that far ...


6 Nuns in Ark. Excommunicated for Heresy

By ANDREW DeMILLO – 8 hours ago

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — Six Catholic nuns have been excommunicated for heresy after refusing to give up membership in a Canadian sect whose founder claims to be possessed by the Virgin Mary, the Diocese of Little Rock announced Wednesday.

The Rev. J. Gaston Hebert, the diocese administrator, said he notified the nuns of the decision Tuesday night after they refused to recant the teachings of the Community of the Lady of All Nations, also known as the Army of Mary.

The Vatican has declared all members of the Army of Mary excommunicated. Hebert said the excommunication was the first in the diocese's 165-year history.

"It is a painfully historic moment for this church," Hebert said.

The six nuns are associated with the Good Shepherd Monastery of Our Lady of Charity and Refuge in Hot Springs. Sister Mary Theresa Dionne, one of the nuns excommunicated, said the nuns will still live at the convent property, which they own.

"We are at peace and we know that for us we are doing the right thing," the 82-year-old nun said. "We pray that the church will open their eyes before it is too late. This is God's work through Mary, the blessed mother, and we're doing what we're asked to do."

At a news conference, Hebert said the nuns "became entranced and deluded with a doctrine that is heretical." He said church officials removed the Eucharist — which Catholics revere as the body of Christ — from the monastery on Tuesday night.

Hebert said the sect's members believe that its 86-year-old founder, Marie Paule Giguere, is the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary and that God speaks directly through her.

Excommunication bars the nuns from participating in the church liturgy and receiving communion or other sacraments.

The diocese said the action was taken after the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a declaration dated July 11 that the Army of Mary's teachings were heretical and automatically excommunicated any who embraced the doctrine.

Hebert said the diocese had known for years that the nuns were following the sect and said church officials in the past had encouraged them to come back into the fold.

According to the Catholic News Service, the Army of Mary was founded in Quebec in 1971 by Giguere, who said she was receiving visions from God.

Dionne said she does not know if Giguere is the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary, but said she believes God communicates through the sect's founder.

"She is doing only what God and Mary tells her to do," Dionne said.

A spokesman for the Army of Mary called the excommunication of the nuns and the other members of the sect an injustice. Father Eric Roy said Giguere has not claimed to be the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary, and said the 86-year-old Quebec woman "receives graces" from the Virgin Mary and God.

"The Virgin Mary took possession of her soul. I would rather say it that way," said Roy, superior general of the Sons of Mary, an associated group.


Excommunicating a 82 y/o nun ... ? ?

[chrisfan]

There was a comment made on the movie board's religion discussion that I just thought I'd share a thought on here. I think it was Kool who commented on the perceived challenge to Melon to open his mind. I am NOT directing this comment specific to Kool, or even really in response tothat comment. Rather, the comment inspired this thought.

I hear people fro mtime to time talk about those firm in their convictions (usually with regards to religion or politics) as close-minded. Why? When a person goes bowling once a week, and always ends up at the same alley, that's considered habit rather than close-minded. When a person enjoys Itallian food and always goes to the same favorite Itallian restaurant, that's considered comfortable and not close-minded. When a man or woman finds a mate they truly love and commit to that person, it's applauded as monogomy, and not close minded.

Some people find the answers to what works for them, or what makes sense for them sooner than others. I don't think that should be dismissed or diminshed. Some people have a shorter path of exploration in finding what makes the most sense.