CE - Volume 1, pp 1-43

[Thorngrub]

Mary said:

...and one more thing thorngrub... I'm a little bit wary of your argument that Moore's film is "heroic" and that part of the justification for the more questionable parts is that Moore needs to use the "same weapons" that the right-wing uses ...

The problem is, if people just accept what Moore dishes out to them, they stop thinking critically and independently for themselves, and teaching people to do that is possibly even more important than teaching them the "right" opinion on a particular issue, because it ensures that they'll approach future issues in a responsible way ...


This is just one example ... but I think Moore's brand of populism is sometimes susceptible to a fairly cynical, exploitative use of imagery like this, and I do worry about that. Overall, I think the movie is worthwhile and I'd encourage people to see it, but I wouldn't celebrate it unreservedly.

M

Those are exellent points. When I stated Moore's film was "heroic", I was attempting to highlight the simple fact that his movie exists - despite its flaws. In fact, that is the one reason I can say that I admire Michael Moore's "mission" -- simply the fact that he has the wherewithall to accomplish it. The very fact that at least one guy from the Left is standing up to make his voice heard -- and heard well & good (considering he has released several successfull documentary films). So that, coupled with the simple fact that it takes courage to stand up before everyone with these anti-establishment rants -- that is what I feel makes him a "hero".

The "best" hero-? Not by a long shot. You have raised perfect examples of why he's not #1 on the heroic list. I'd put him on the bottom rung of that ladder -- but he's on the ladder (which is saying more than a lot of us potential hero/dreamers).

I'll be back in a bit -- gotta run 4 now.

[Thorngrub]

[glow=red,2,300]You compare the leader of my Party to Hitler. Now, you can make such pathetic, absurd, ridiculous, over the top statements all day if you wish, but you'll garner shit for respect from where I sit. If Bush=Hitler, what does that make me? Or anyone with a conservative ideology? Nazis? (jesus fucking christ)[/glow]

One step at a time, stratman. For the umpteenth time, (and I will say it again and again and again until you finally stop to realize that what I have said about Bush insofar as Hitler comparisons go is NOT THAT BUSH EQUALS HITLER, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD STRATMAN, I have merely stated again and again that the lines Bush is heading down parallel Hitler's own lines he was heading down before Hitler even gained the infamous notoriety he ended up gaining! JUST WHAT THE FUCK DON'T YOU GET ABOUT THAT COMPARISON?

So, you really wanna know what that makes you? Or anyone with a conservative ideology? (You angrily, and with good reason, say "Nazis?!") -- And I reply: NO. It does NOT make you NAZIS. HOWEVER, I merely beseech thee to REALIZE, stratman: that your so-called "NAZIS" are HUMAN BEINGS, just like your so-called "CONSERVATIVE IDEOLOGISTS"! I.E, an entire demographic such as "conservative ideologists" has the potential to be lumped into a VILE categorization as "NAZIS" in *future times*.

Just what the fuck do you think would happen to your precious demographic should History take a sick twist (as it did for Germany half a century ago)-??

Well I'm sorry to say, but SHOULD fate take a turn such as that for the worst (continuing to parallel the Hitler pathway) -- then guess what, champ? Whatever catchy, single-syllable term that encompasses "Extreme Fundamentalist Conservative American Rightwinger" would be fated to carry the same VILE, SICK, "EVIL" associations that the term "Nazi" carries today.

IN OTHER WORDS (if my point has failed to be driven home by now) -------------- Each And Every Individual Human Being Alive Today Labelled A "Nazi" Was Once Merely An Innocent Human Being Exactly Like Yourself.
I'll take that a step further and suggest (Oh The Horror!) that the word "Nazi" is no better than the word "Nigger". It is a sick, and ultimately meaningless - not to mention crude - catchphrase that merely inspires confused feelings of Hate and Rejection. You might want to watch yourself using that term, lest some day future generations refer to US, You and Me with a similar Hate-Tinged Phoneme! (If you can't see that all I'm saying is that all your so-called "Nazis" are merely regular human beings such as yourself -- with their own beliefs and codes of honor and all that other BULLCRAP, then you truly are dangerously straddling the line between Ignorance and Calling the Kettle Black. If it's not acceptable in today's society to use terms such as KIKE, NIGGER, SPIC, etcetera . . . then stop using the term NAZI . . . it's meaningless, other than in an Historic context.

*sigh* Let me try to state what I've been saying here in another manner: All I'm doing stratman is merely warning of the potential for things to get out of hand for the Extreme Fundamentalist Conservative Rightwing faction of this country!!!! (SORRY I CARED ENOUGH TO MAKE A COMMENT)

Jesus Christ, it's as if I had the sensitivity to try and WARN YOU ABOUT THE 18 WHEELER HEADED STRAIGHT AT YOU and you in turn have the audacity to BITCH ABOUT IT at me!

Why in the FUCK can't you just turn to me and say "Well thanks for the warning Thorngrub, but I really think you're being paranoid -- seriously, Bush isn't anywhere near to becoming a "Hitler" as you've been suggesting, and let me tell you why..." Is it because I've HIT A NERVE, or something-? I don't know.

All I'm doing is pointing out a POTENTIAL THREAT looming on the event-horizon . . . and for all my CARING this is what I get.

It's okay, man -- I understand how I must be coming across -- but you gotta realize -- I'm NOT ACCUSING YOU OR CHRISFAN OF BEING "NAZIS"; I'm not saying BUSH = HITLER!! I'm saying there is a suspicious parallel of events with our current president as there was with Hitler, and I'm only saying that because I CARE ABOUT YOU!!!

I can see this is hopeless. You believe what you want to about me, m'kay? Obviously I could tell you until I'm blue in the face that all I'm doing is pointing out a suspicious parallel between Hitler's reign and Bush's (as if I'm the only one doing so! lol) --- and that I"m NOT EQUATING BUSH WITH HITLER, yet you will continually screech at me "You Bastard! How DARE you say my beloved President is another Hitler!!"

Well I can UNDERSTAND YOUR OUTRAGE, stratman.....but for the last time, I AM NOT SAYING BUSH IS LIKE HITLER. I AM ONLY POINTING OUT THAT DUE TO CERTAIN PARALLELS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE IDEOLOGIES, THE DOOM THAT WAS IN STORE FOR HITLER MAY VERY WELL TURN UP BEING IN STORE FOR BUSH. Now please tell me what is wrong with pointing out that POSSIBILITY. Seriously -- I wanna know what is wrong with me pointing out that possibility. Do you even UNDERSTAND what the word "possibility" MEANS? Can you read? Are you capable of processing simple English? Or do you just scan my words, glean a vague blur of the phrases "...Bush......Hitler..........history....." and then SNAP BACK AT ME without the slightest clue or realization as to the significanse of what I really said?

Well? What the fuck?

[Thorngrub]

[glow=red,2,300]you seem to hold anyone with a conservative ideology, in complete disdain, you would seem to view us as dupes, morons or worse, you treat people like shit if they don't agree with you.

and you want to be "diplomatic", and "reach across the gulf"

Well, if that's really the case, you could stop treating people like shit, just because they hold a worldview and political philosophy that differs from yours. Don't want to do that? That's fine too, just stop being a goddamn hypocrite.[/glow]

You and Me Both, Kiddo. We're Both Glaring Hypocrites, That Much Is Obvious. Perhaps if you stop treating me like shit because I hold a worldview and political philosophy that differs from yours, I will stop treating you like shit because you hold a worldview and political philosophy that differs from mine.

And, in my defense, I must add that I don't believe I have ever treated anyone on these boards like shit because they hold a different view than mine: I MERELY LASH BACK AT EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL THAT MAKES CRUDE JABS AT ME.

That is all I have done. It is a self-defense, reactionary thing. I am WAITING for the person whose worldview and political ideologies that are different from mine to MERELY ENGAGE IN CIVIL DIPLOMATIC DISCOURSE ... something that only a very few on these boards manage constantly to achieve.

Those who get their panties in a wad and lash out at me, however slightly, will ALWAYS get lashed back at, cuz I'm a just a BITCH like that.

But I GUARANTEE YOU stratman . . .that THE DAY either you or Chrisfan OR THE GODDAMNED DEVIL HIMSELF suddenly makes the EFFORT to engage in CIVIL DISCOURSE WITH ME, that I will MIRROR THAT CIVIL DISCOURSE BACK effortlessly. In fact, I yearn for that every day I post here.

Yes I am saying I yearn to be FRIENDS with Chrisfan, and that I yearn to be FRIENDS with you, stratman. I yearn to be FRIENDS WITH EVERYONE -- a doomed proposition if there ever was one, eh?

Yet I ever diligently try -- alienating those with the potential to be alienated left & right -- pissing off those who stepped on my toes when I step right back on theirs -- clearly demarcating the line between us and revealing we are at odds even more so than we might wish. It's as if your very existance -- and Chrisfan's -- proves there will always be certain groups of individuals who simply cannot see eye to eye, no matter what.

Well all I can say is, despite the angry tone of my "lashbacks" at you -- that I remain ever hopeful that Chrisfan, yourself, and I can one day look forward to diplomatically ironing out our differences so that we may understand each other better.

Of course a forum such as this -- a message board -- does make that an especially difficult challenge.

[Thorngrub]

[glow=red,2,300]and you want to be "diplomatic", and "reach across the gulf"

Yeah, right. [/glow]

YEAH, IT IS RIGHT FELLOW POSTER. DO YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY IT IS RIGHT? BECAUSE I CLAIMED IT TO BE SO. I.E, WHEN I SAY I WISH FOR NOTHING OTHER THAN TO REACH ACROSS THE GULF BETWEEN US AND SHARE CIVIL DISCOURSE DESPITE OUR IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES, I MEAN IT. THAT IS BECAUSE I MEAN WHAT I SAY. I AM NOT A LIAR. I AM MERELY BEING HONEST. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN HONEST. SO DON'T YOU "YEAH, RIGH" ME, STRATMAN. I'M TELLING YOU HOW I FEEL, AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE ME, THEN SO BE IT.

[chrisfan]

thorny said:

And, in my defense, I must add that I don't believe I have ever treated anyone on these boards like shit because they hold a different view than mine: I MERELY LASH BACK AT EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL THAT MAKES CRUDE JABS AT ME.

When did the president, and the entire neo-conservative movement as a whole make crude jabs at you?

[Meursault]

And with that now thorn, you have to show those parralells.

[Mary]

I'll take that a step further and suggest (Oh The Horror!) that the word "Nazi" is no better than the word "Nigger". It is a sick, and ultimately meaningless - not to mention crude - catchphrase that merely inspires confused feelings of Hate and Rejection.

Um, wait a minute. "Nazi" was the actual name of Hitler's party. People who belonged to this party or routinely supported this party were Nazis just as much as people who belong to the Democratic Party are Democrats. Now, i would agree that the word "nazi" today is all too often flung accusingly at one's ideological opponent as a ludicrous and unfounded slur, but the Nazi Party had a clear antisemitic, fascist ideology, and calling someone who genuinely shared that ideology a Nazi wouldn't be at all meaningless, in my book.

There's no comparison with n*gger, which was never the name of a party, and no one ever identified themselves with it (until blacks tried to reclaim and resignify the word away from its original meaning as a racial slur, but that's neither here nor there)

I guess this gets back to your post on "labels"—I never really had the problem with labels that you did. I don't want to be above labels. I identify completely, and proudly, with the left. You seem to think that particular terms must by necessity have rigid, unbending definitions—that "left" needs to mean exactly one, precise thing for every single person who identifies as a leftist. If that were true, i can imagine why you'd want to resist labels, but I just don't understand why that would be true. There's plenty of internal disagreement and dissension among leftists, just as there is among any other category-grouping, especially political ones. That doesn't mean it doesn't mean anything, it just means it's defined in a sufficiently abstract manner that people can disagree on specifics and still all be leftists. It doesn't take away from your individuality or your "quirks" to belong to a group. I also consider myself a feminist but there are pro-porn feminists and anti-porn feminists, pro-marriage feminists and anti-marriage feminists, feminists who supported the Equal Rigths Amendment and feminists who were worried it would remove protective legislation on behalf of female laborers, libertarian feminists and marxist feminists, etc etc etc. Still doesn't make the term meaningless.

M

[chrisfan]

Mary said:

But assuming the latter ain't gonna happen (which is precisely what I think) I think military recruiters and JROTC and ROTC and all of these programs should present to prospective recruitees in full, explicit, graphic detail the costs they may pay if they join the military. I have no problem with them mentioning all the various benefits—employment and educational opportunities, self-discipline, etc etc—but alongside these, they should (for example) show pictures of soldiers lying in hospital beds in mortal agony with their limbs blasted off. They should discuss the pain and loneliness that soldiers on duty, separated from their families, feel. I realize how radical and insane this must sound, and again, I don't expect you (or really anyone elsehere) to agree, but if this was a part of recruitment, I would feel much, much beter about the "choice" to enlist made by poor people.

I've been thinking about this. Now I know it won't come as a shock or a dissapointment to you that I don't agree with it, but I do have a few comments. I think that if you're going to endorse this sort of recruitment, that's fine. But then I think you should apply it to other walks of life and choices as well. When parents are registering their kids for public schools, they should be shown crime scene photos of Columbine so that they understand what can happen to kids in schools. Eqaually graphic warnings should be given to police officers and fire fighters. Postal workers too, because you know what can happen there. Come to think of it, college professors should probably be given the same warning, given that there have been cases on campuses of people going nuts and setting off on a shooting spree. MIT students and faculty should probably be given extra warning if the stories of suicide rates being higher there are true. NFL players should probably watch Joe Theisman video before being drafted too. I mean, if we're going to be honest about risks in recruitment, we should be honest in all walks of life.

Secondly, I do not know exactly what the context of it was, so I can't say if it is an ROTC sponsored requirement, or just something that happened in conversation with a collegue, but I do remember distinctly one of my cousins who is in the military talking about the counseling and advising that both he and his now wife received before they got married about the difficulties and hardships the military can cause in a marriage. And I have to say, seeing what they've gone though, and the support they're getting now with him deployed, I think that the organization of the military and their families in providing a supporty system for each other is second to none (with the possible exception of police and firefighting families) when it comes to dealing with those hardships.

[Thorngrub]

It was idiotic of me to compare the word Nazi with Nigger.



Idiotic -- I apologize.

Just beware that the word "Fundi" may come to substitute the word "Nazi" for the 21st Century (merely replace "Germany" with "United States") .


If there was WAS SUCH A THING AS YOUR GOD, I would pray to Him that never happens to you.

[Mary]

Oh, and speaking of making liberals look like conservatives....

That's definitely true, stratman, in this country! I mean, I do think that American "liberals" are conservative. I think the entire American ideological scale is shifted way to the right compared to many other democratic nations. If I went to Europe, though, I'd probably be fairly mainstream—left-of-center, certainly, but no one would find my politics shocking or way way radical. It's pretty much leftish social-democratic. I'm not calling for imminent revolution, I'm not against private property (but then, neither is the Russian Communist Party, so really, who is anymore??), I'm not even against significant differences in wealth and income. I just want a substantial safety net, which would include a guaranteed minimum income, educational opportunities and job training, childcare, public housing, etc etc. I don't want to bring them up to the same level as people who are wealthy, I just want to bring them up to a level where they aren't suffering. I don't believe this can happen through a laissez-faire market system, so I believe in heavily graduated taxes to fund a public safety net. I don't think anyone deserves to starve or go without a home, not even someone who is simply lazy and refuses to work.

I'm not under the delusion that you can wipe out poverty and misery, and I know a system like this would hit plenty of its own snags and problems, but I think that has to be the baseline from which to work. Any modern, reasonably prosperous nation which doesn't strive to guarantee against deprivation is highly objectionable for me.

One more thing that drives me crazy about America is that I believe we're a country that suffers from historical amnesia. We stubbornly refuse to see the effects of the past in the present. We act as though "equal opportunity" exists provided that there is no system in place today which directly erects legal barriers against any group of people, as though the experiences of past generations can't in and of itself make a mockery of equal opportunity in the present. Anyone who dares point out there are historical reasons for certain problems today (this is especially clear in discussions about race) is instantly called a whiner or a victim or someone who just wants to blame someone else for their own failings. This might bother me even more than our economic system, come to think of it.

That doesn't mean I hate America. There are things I love about this country, things I miss when I'm abroad. I love our cultural history, I love the movies, rock and roll, unpretentious pop culture, baseball, jazz, blues, James Dean, Marlon Brando, film noir, teenage trash culture, F. Scott Fitzgerald, flappers... I love driving across this country. I love places where its heritage hasn't been eviscerated by kitschy tourist replicas or giant strip malls. I love San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, New York City, Chicago. I love the weird multicultural polyglot mishmash that America is. So I get angry, really angry, when people like David Horowitz and Ann Coulter and their simplistic brethren call the left America-hating, and howl about traitors and Fifth Columns and fellow travellers. I'm so critical about our political and economic systems because there are so many things about this country I love, I just wish it were a more just place.

phew. sorry. You didn't ask for a treatise on America, but somehow, responding to your friendly jest just set me off!!!!

Cheers,
M

[Thorngrub]

[glow=pink,2,300]I identify completely, and proudly, with the left. You seem to think that particular terms must by necessity have rigid, unbending definitions—that "left" needs to mean exactly one, precise thing for every single person who identifies as a leftist. If that were true, i can imagine why you'd want to resist labels, but I just don't understand why that would be true. [/glow]


I envy you Mary for your cool, collected ability to stay rational and calm in the face of debating.

I am a terrible debater.

I have a short temper, my knowledge is limited to say the least, I am highly opinionated, and just lousy at staying calm while debating these heated issues.

For the lack of anything more to say on this subject which I am so poorly equipped to deal with justifiably, all I can say to stratman and Chrisfan and anyone else offended by my sloppy, reactionist rantings is . . . I'm sorry.

What really gets me about this whole issue is merely that I think IDEOLOGY itself is the BLIGHT upon humanity's face which leads to HATRED and STRIFE between disparate factions.

So it's not that stratman or Chrisfan lashes out at me because our ideologies are different, or that I lash out at them because of it ---rather, it is merely that I HAVE NO IDEOLOGIES, per se.

IDEOLOGY ITSELF is what DAMNED a CERTAIN FACTION of GERMANS into being labelled as "EVIL", in the wake of Hitler's Nazis and everything that went down.

IDEOLOGY ITSELF is what COULD POTENTIALLY DAMN a CERTAIN FACTION of UNITED STATES CITIZENS into being labelled as "EVIL", in the wake of Bush's Fundamentalist Conservatives and everything that is in the process of going down.


If that makes me YOUR ENEMY, stratman & Chrisfan, then that is your choice. If there is any Cake I am guilty of Having and Wanting to Eat it Too, then it is only the CAKE OF WANTING TO BE FRIENDS WITH THE LIKES OF YOU.

It is as if I would be much better off clearly demarcating the line between us and making no bones about pretending we could be friends. My own "wishy-washiness" here is what is damning me -- I constantly strive to be a "friend" to everyone and that is most likely my singular weakness.

Well so be it. I will continue striving to bridge the gap between disparate parties of human beings. Some you win over - - some you lose. No big deal.

I mean well -- even if I come across like a hardened, bitter jackass. And I always hold out hope that two alienated parties who cannot see eye to eye, may in fact some day come to an understanding of each other which clears the smog between them.

Such is my hope for the likes of you, stratman, and Chrisfan. I simply (for better or worse) refuse to declare we must be "enemies" or that we can't get along. For better or for worse, I hold out hope that one day we can get along. Lil' ol' dummy dreamer me.

[Thorngrub]

I don't hate America either, in fact I love it with a passion off the scale. My ancestors were shoemakers from Killough, Ireland, who arrived here before the Mayflower did. The feeling of patriotism and, yes, PRIDE of being an American beats strongly within my chest. DESPITE the current events unfolding around us making the rest of the world despise us. DESPITE our current administration run by a bunch of money-grubbing jackasses whose morals are more suspect than those of the Taliban's. DESPITE all these things, I am proud to be an American -- and I always shall be. There is nothing wrong with this country that true blue Americans such as myself can't address together and FIX.

If you Neo-conservatives or whatever the hell it is you are think everything's JUST FINE AND DANDY then more power to you -- I hope you enjoy a happy life in your isolated little dream bubbles.

I believe in a balancing force in this universe known as KARMA -- something I have seen many conservatives either scoff at or have to ask what it is. You believe in your mighty "God", mmmmm'k -? And I'll believe in the cosmic force of KARMA, m'k? Fair trade.

Because I believe the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is ONE SINGLE ORGANISM of which we are all swarming little parts. This organism is ever shifting to achieve a static kind of balance. The shift may inch several hundred years one way, then inch back for the next several hundred years. Or it might be several hundred hours, or days (depending on the nature of the forces at work). j

The nature of the AMERICAN POLITICAL FORCES that have been AT WORK FOR THE LAST CENTURY are INEXORABLY AFFECTING THE DYNAMIC OF THE UNIVERSE, and hence . . . for every ACTION there is a REACTION . . . and that just means that WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.

The fact that most Rightwing/conservatives HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WHAT REALLY HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN US HISTORY WITH FOREIGN AFFAIRS is not surprising at all -- and perfectly explains their kneejerk "outrage" when this is suggested.

AMERICA AS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION ON EARTH IS A NATION OF MURDERING DESPOTS JUST AS MUCH AS ANY OTHER NATION YOU COULD SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT, ONLY WE'RE BIGGER, STRONGER, AND FAR MORE DANGEROUS.

Lick it up, Fundis.

[melon1]

This one's for thorny. I wrote it.

Gen X

Mock on, mock on and tear us down
With small-minded reason and arrogant frowns
Don't bother to listen to the "poisoned minds"
Of the ones before you of the "fascist grind."

Just go ahead and bite the hand that feeds
Which established you comfort and set your soul at ease
You're spoiled and blind with your pampered pleas
Boredom, your incentive and complaining, your disease

You listen to the cries of persuasion on the screen
Of cultural principalities that demand your esteem
Then you say,"I know what's down on the scene.
I watch Michael Moore and listen to Rage Against the Machine."

Yeah, throw it all away and listen deeply to the songs
That say Hollywood is right and your parents are wrong
Just march with your burning flag headlong
To your self-righteous chant,"To no country we belong."

And give no thanks to a God above
Who's given a free country so many bound would love
But rather find more ways to push and shove
Any more anarchist views that you can think of!

Because we "sick" people just don't see life through your eyes
In your euphorical world where authority you despise.
I suppose you think our "ancient' values should die
And we should continue to gaurd our children's ears and eyes.

[chrisfan]

Thorn, here's my clue for you for the day ... everytime you write a divisive "us and them" post, with lines such as "If you neo-conservatives or whatever the hell you are ..." you make me giggle a little more at the notion that you're "reaching out to close the divide".

[chrisfan]

BTW Melon, I like the poem.