CE 7

[chrisfan]

Pissin2 said:

See Chris, when I read that what I see is you doing something, not God. I don't see him guiding you. I don't see him making you sleep. You realized on your own that the worrying was doing no good, and you needed sleep. You also realized that it was out of your hands. You came to terms with this and accepted it. And you realized you had to be in your best shape if you were going to go through things ok. I don't see how God played such a big part in it. What if you had no concept of God? What it the words "religion" and "god" and the ideas themselves never existed? I think it's the power to just look inside your self for the answers that got you through it. Faith in yourself. Not some higher power.

I disagree. And the primary reason I disagree is that i know that my ability to hand my worries over to God was possible because of my trust in God. I did not say "I stopped worrying about it, because I knew that did me no good". I'm not the kind of person (I don't think I've ever met the kind of person) who can be told "stop worrying about that' and poof, not worry. I had the realization that someone I trusted more than ANYONE I've ever known on this earth knew what would happen to me, and would let me know when I needed to know. The trust, and the faith I have in the power of God is crucial here.

Compare it to leaving your child with a babysitter. You leave your small helples child, and you worry. It's natural. Now if you leave your child with a trusted babysitter who you've known for a long long time, and you're sure has love and concern for your child, the worry is going to be less. If you leave your child to go out to dinner with a sitter, and while your eating it's whispered in your ear "The person with your child right now is a known child molestor", then your worry level is going to go UP big time.

I had spent a few days in my tumor experience thinking that I could handle it, I was in control, I'd pick the right doctor, read enough on the internet, and that would be fine. I was looking within myself, as you said. That did not work. When I was humble enough to believe that I could not handle it alone, that I was not in control, and that my trust belonged in God, THAT is when things got better.

[Thorngrub]

[glow=yellow,2,300]You'll never be able to explain the origin of God, though. You want to imply that He is a "fictional character" but you have absolutely no way to prove that He's NOT real.
[/glow]

With all due respect, and for the purposes of driving home what I consider to be an absolutely crucial point:

"god" is merely a 3-letter word.

Whenever we get that through our heads - most especially those so fanatically devoted to "his" existance - we can then AND ONLY THEN begin making true headway towards exploring the very real nature of said 3-lettered "deity".

Personally I believe there is a far more accurate 3-letter spelling of god. dna. That may be "just me"; but I am not alone in this simple observation. Anyone who actually studies the extremely complex manifestation(s) of dna since it's discovery by Francis Crick and James Watson a scant 50-or-so years ago will be irrevocably drawn deeper and deeper into the slowly-dawning and ultimately-undeniable truth of its pervasive influence on all Life as we know it on this planet since time immemorial .

Anyone in the least bit interested in this manifestation known as "Life Itself" will truly be doing themselves a favor by looking into the actuality and reality of dna.

In the final analysis, "god" is but a three letter word responsible for more disagreement and tumultuous argumentation which escalates into pure violence, hatred, and opposition, that a truly honest-to-goodness peace-loving human being such as myself has absolutely no choice but to dismiss it outright in favor of a more clearly developed reference-point in discussing "His" holy eminence and influence on creation since it's alleged "Inception".

When you devoutly rigorous and well-meaning Christians finally put down YOUR demanding (and quite limited) definition of just who/what "god" actually IS in favour of a more approachable and inherently communicable methodology in explicating yourselves, then AND ONLY THEN will the rest of the world stand a chance at healing itself and moving on with its intended, natural scope of evolution towards harmonious interfacing on this planet with its limited resources.

Sadly -- your devout and unreasonable narrowminded stance that you absolutely and by your own definitions must be and are entitled to be right is a true stumbling block for the Whole to develop accordingly along intended lines -- and tragically, I am beginning to fear that your numbers, growing exponentially as they are in a sort of sanctified viral lock reproducing yourselves unequivocally & without fair and calculated balance -- are storming headlong towards a cruel demise for us all, simply because you (as well as your like-minded Islamic brethren) have created a fail-safe in that after all, ye shall be "saved" when forced into thy kingdom in heaven.

Say what ye will about the above musing I have posted. I merely urge all truly well-meaning Christians who dearly wish to close the ever-growing divide between us to re-read it and attempt to digest what I am really trying to say. Which is "god" is nothing but a 3-letter word; it is the inherent meaning behind that word which is so utterly important. And if we cannot agree on the meaning hiding behind a puny word like that -- it is up to us to use our minds creatively to work out a way in which we can explain ourselves better.

peace out,
shaun

[chrisfan]

Looks like someone is about to get a DRIDPT penalty. Wonder if it will be 5 or 10 yards.

[Thorngrub]

And speaking of "good" and "evil" -- Y'all wanna know what I think is truly the only thing in creation that can be actually considered "evil" -?

The word "evil".

For it is, in fact, evil itself. The word, that is.

Do you get my meaning?

The word "evil" is really the only ACTUAL evil in creation, because it is the seed which engenders that virus of meaning which spreads itself throughout mankind's mentality, just like a meme spreads itself via the vectors of men's understandings as it is passed from human to human.

In this sense it should be easy to see that the only thing truly evil under the sun is the word evil itself.

Think about it. Animals don't have that word. Do they consider what is "good" and "evil" under the sun?

This, of course, would equally apply to the word "good". It's just so much better for all concerned when we spread the "good meme" about the earth, than it is when we spread the "evil meme". So there is a transcendant meaning to the words that must resolve itself into a distinction between the two, hence the need for the words to have developed in language.

That does not change the observation that the only TRULY "good" or "evil" in this existance are the words themselves. Everything else we commit in our lifetimes and daily existences is but a reflection of those words, and in the end most likely will perfectly balance each other out.

[pissin2]

But how do you know you can trust God? The babysitter thing works. If I had a kid and left it with my Aunt, I'd feel very comfortable. Because I've met her. I've been around her for a long time. I can put my faith in her to take care of the kid because I KNOW her. I've based this trust on actual events. On facts. You putting your faith and trust in God is the same as putting your faith and trust in the secondary babysitter who you've just met today through a newspaper article.

When I was humble enough to believe that I could not handle it alone, that I was not in control, and that my trust belonged in God, THAT is when things got better.

This is the part I really don't get. Actually it kind of freaks me out a little. Most things in your life you are in control of. I think it's important for people to realize that. However getting sick is not one of them. But it's not something that God is in control over either. I had absolutely no faith in god when I was sick. I still got better. Because of medicine. There were times when I couldn't sleep or eat and stuff like that as well. But I kept my own faith and told myself I was better than that and took as much control of the situation as possible. Then I felt a lot better. The greatest tool we have at our disposal is inside our skulls.

[Ampage]

“Think about it. Animals don't have that word. Do they consider what is "good" and "evil" under the sun?”


My dogs sense evil, I truly believe that, so ……………………..

[rockkid]

"That sounds hot." Jeez you sound like Ms Hilton.

Non religion for a mo if I may

Support your guys………………. Regardless your political leanings

www.fromiraqwithlove.com/

[Philemon]

FAITH is, or should be, a state of openness or trust.
To have faith is like when you jump into a lake.
You don't grab hold of the water when you swim
because if you do you will become stiff and tight and sink.
You have to relax, and the attitude of faith
is the very opposite of clinging, and holding on.

In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion,
and cling to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe
becomes a person who has no faith at all.
Instead he is holding tight.

But the attitude of faith is to let go
and become open to truth
whatever it might turn out to be ...

[chrisfan]

Pissin2 said:

But how do you know you can trust God? The babysitter thing works. If I had a kid and left it with my Aunt, I'd feel very comfortable. Because I've met her. I've been around her for a long time. I can put my faith in her to take care of the kid because I KNOW her. I've based this trust on actual events. On facts. You putting your faith and trust in God is the same as putting your faith and trust in the secondary babysitter who you've just met today through a newspaper article.

When I was humble enough to believe that I could not handle it alone, that I was not in control, and that my trust belonged in God, THAT is when things got better.

This is the part I really don't get. Actually it kind of freaks me out a little. Most things in your life you are in control of. I think it's important for people to realize that. However getting sick is not one of them. But it's not something that God is in control over either. I had absolutely no faith in god when I was sick. I still got better. Because of medicine. There were times when I couldn't sleep or eat and stuff like that as well. But I kept my own faith and told myself I was better than that and took as much control of the situation as possible. Then I felt a lot better. The greatest tool we have at our disposal is inside our skulls.

Pissin, you are going to be hard pressed to find a person of faith that can put into words how we "know" that God exsists, and is active in our lives. It sounds like a weak answer to say "I just know" but it really is either that simple, or that difficult to put into words. I know that's not the answer you're looking for, but that's the only answer I can really offer.

You said a few posts ago that usually when you get into religious discussions, you end up more confused rather than more enlightened. I can understand that. From the feedback ,you've given, it appears (and this is not in any way condescending, simply a statement) that you're not able to see this from any perspective other than your own. You're beliefs appear to be so firmly planted in the belief that God does NOT exsist, that you have a hard time entertaining the idea that He could exsist, and be active in the lives of people you know ... or even you. I'd love to be able to say "try looking at it this way",and find the words to explain it to you. But I am one of those people who always grew up believing in, and knowing God. I know that some people have had "a-ha' moments where they found God. But I'm not one of them. I think this is a case where each of us so firmly knows to be true what we know to be true that I can't figure out how to paint the picture more clearly to you, and you can't figure out how to paint it more clearly for me. Fair?

[pissin2]

Chris - halfway true. See, I'm not so firmly planted in the idea that God doesn't exist either. I don't know. I do actually entertain the possibililty. Which is why it's so hard for me to understand why some people can be so sure that there is a God, and put all their faith in him. The fact is none of us really know. So it's really frustrating and doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me when someone says "I just know". That's why I can't see it from another's perspective. Usually people have such a hard time explaining that perspective, which is why I always ask "Then why do you believe?" I for one know when I believe in something I can always truly explain to you why, otherwise I wouldn't feel that strongly about it.

[pissin2]

Philemon said:

FAITH is, or should be, a state of openness or trust.
To have faith is like when you jump into a lake.
You don't grab hold of the water when you swim
because if you do you will become stiff and tight and sink.
You have to relax, and the attitude of faith
is the very opposite of clinging, and holding on.

In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion,
and cling to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe
becomes a person who has no faith at all.
Instead he is holding tight.

But the attitude of faith is to let go
and become open to truth
whatever it might turn out to be ...

Nice. Very nice.

[chrisfan]

Pissin2 said:

Chris - halfway true. See, I'm not so firmly planted in the idea that God doesn't exist either. I don't know. I do actually entertain the possibililty. Which is why it's so hard for me to understand why some people can be so sure that there is a God, and put all their faith in him. The fact is none of us really know. So it's really frustrating and doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me when someone says "I just know". That's why I can't see it from another's perspective. Usually people have such a hard time explaining that perspective, which is why I always ask "Then why do you believe?" I for one know when I believe in something I can always truly explain to you why, otherwise I wouldn't feel that strongly about it.

But a belief in God is certianly not the only thingthat people can feel as an absolute, and not be able to explain any way other than "I just know" is it? Can't the same thing be said about love? And there's that scene in the movie A Beautiful Mind where Alicia Nash uses principles of science to explain love as "I just know". Aren't there things in life that ALL of us "just know" whether it's a faith in God, or something else? Honestly, how do any of us REALLY know why the sky is blue?

[pissin2]

If you are saying you're in love with someone, and someone asks you why, and your answer is "I just know I am" Then you're not really in love. You're basing it on something. You should be able to come up with plenty of reasons why you are in love with that person.

We know the sky is blue because as a society we have designated the word "blue" with that color that you see in the sky. But we don't know why the sky actually is that color no more than we know if there is a god.
So why not just put my faith in the blue sky, instead of God, and believe that the sky itself will help get me through everything?

[stratman19]

Chrisfan said:

I feel the need to let out another rant. Maybe I can keep this one John-Ashcoft-approved-porn-reference-free.

I had forgotten just how much I hate this time in a presidential election for one reason. (okay, for two reasons, the first being that I dearly love the campaign process, and I go through withdrawl when I'm torn away from my soulmates who are equally lit up by the process ... but that's not rant worthy) As the resignations start coming in, and new nominations are made, I despise the way the media covers the race of non-white nominees before and more than they cover their credentials. Why does it matter than Al Gonzales would be the first hispanic attorney general? He's more than that. WHy does it matter than Larry whats-his-name would be the first black AG? He's more than that. When the talk about nominees like that, they're almost saying that the person's race is the only reason they got the nominee. That's such crap! I hate it.

Well it looks like the new AG is going to be Al Gonzalez. I'll join you in this rant Chris. It pisses me off too. People are more than their ethnic origins. They are either good people, or they're not. They are either qualified people, or they're not. Why do we always have to preface it with, or hyphenate it with "black", or "hispanic", or "female". Why can't people be judged simply on their merits?

[JACkory]

thoRny said:

[glow=yellow,2,300]You'll never be able to explain the origin of God, though. You want to imply that He is a "fictional character" but you have absolutely no way to prove that He's NOT real.
[/glow]

With all due respect, and for the purposes of driving home what I consider to be an absolutely crucial point:

"god" is merely a 3-letter word.

Whenever we get that through our heads - most especially those so fanatically devoted to "his" existance - we can then AND ONLY THEN begin making true headway towards exploring the very real nature of said 3-lettered "deity".

Personally I believe there is a far more accurate 3-letter spelling of god. dna. That may be "just me"; but I am not alone in this simple observation....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When you devoutly rigorous and well-meaning Christians finally put down YOUR demanding (and quite limited) definition of just who/what "god" actually IS in favour of a more approachable and inherently communicable methodology in explicating yourselves, then AND ONLY THEN will the rest of the world stand a chance at healing itself and moving on with its intended, natural scope of evolution towards harmonious interfacing on this planet with its limited resources.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Say what ye will about the above musing I have posted. I merely urge all truly well-meaning Christians who dearly wish to close the ever-growing divide between us to re-read it and attempt to digest what I am really trying to say. Which is "god" is nothing but a 3-letter word; it is the inherent meaning behind that word which is so utterly important. And if we cannot agree on the meaning hiding behind a puny word like that -- it is up to us to use our minds creatively to work out a way in which we can explain ourselves better.

Well, of course "god" is but a 3 letter word, thorny, but come on. Words are the only tools we have with which to communicate, so don't be offended when I say "God" to indicate the Source of All Life, the Origin of All Things, the Meaning of Life, the REASON, et. al. I'm GLAD "God" is a 3 letter word cuz I just don't have time to type out all that I believe that word "God" entails.
And noone disagrees that it's the MEANING behind the word that counts. And noone disputes the "actuality and reality of DNA", but I think it's a bit of a stretch to place DNA on the same pedestal as Deity. That's my opinion, though, and I don't ask you to share it.

As for "devoutly rigorous and well-meaning Christians demanding (and quite limited) definition of just who/what "god" actually IS"... I'll tell you this...there's nothing whatsoever "limited" in my "definition" of God. If you'll look at what I've described Him as being in the first portion of this post you'll see nothing "limiting" whatsoever. Certainly I would not limit my understanding of deity to a concept of "God is DNA/DNA is God"...that said with all due respect to whatever you choose to believe.
Besides, it seems pointless to expect explication of spiritual matters, things cosmic and unseen. The best any of us can do is admit that we just don't know, and all Christians are doing is accepting the word of a trusted Source...

Sadly -- your devout and unreasonable narrowminded stance that you absolutely and by your own definitions must be and are entitled to be right is a true stumbling block for the Whole to develop accordingly along intended lines
I have faith that "the Whole" will develop accordingly along intended lines because my faith tells me it will. Of course, the terminology may be found offensive by you, but it's part of the Lord's Prayer when we affirm that God's will be done. But I'm not privy to what those "intended lines" are, and neither are you.
If that makes me narrow-minded and unreasonable, so be it. I'm not on a soapbox saying I'm Right and You're Wrong. All I'm saying is that I TRUST JESUS. I suppose we'll all be clued in when our time comes, eh?

I don't know how else I can explain myself better.