CE 7

[chrisfan]

Pissin2 said:

*please note that not only have I not talked shit about Bush today, but I also called Kerry a jerk.

Now if only you'd continue your bi-partisian spirit in saying things that were relevant!

[pissin2]

Everything I say is relevant. You just don't realize it most of the time. You're too busy napping or something.

[JACkory]

Pissin2 said:

Right and wrong often is just a matter of opinion. People will say "I did what I thought was right", but then somebody else might say "That's wrong to me. I would have done this instead" I think there are things we should all agree are wrong, like say murdering a hitchiker. But to some sick people that's ok. It might be of their opinion that is a good thing to do. And if you tell them it's not, and they are wrong, they might just say "well I think I'm right, and that's the only opinion that matters to me." But this person would clearly be insane. And evil.

I think there are things we should all agree are wrong........Okay, I 100% agree. Now the question I'm asking is "How do we come to the determination of which things are wrong?" You say "to some sick people it's okay to murder a hitchhiker", therefore acknowledging that the impulse to murder makes a person "sick", and yeah, I agree with you, but the same person can use your own logic and say that YOU'RE the one whose sick because you don't understand the reasoning behind murdering hitchhikers. So who's right and who's wrong?
That's what I mean when I say we have to have absolutes in this world, that relativism breaks down in the sphere of morality and ethics.
And what I am wanting to know from you, in respect of your position as an agnostic who is openly hostile to religion, is who or what do you think should determine the boundaries of right and wrong.
Do you believe in a "moral law" that everyone is born with a subconscious understanding of? If not, then how can anyone truly arbitrate between right and wrong? And if so, where does this "moral law" come from?

And if you tell them it's not, and they are wrong, they might just say "well I think I'm right, and that's the only opinion that matters to me." But this person would clearly be insane. And evil....I agree there, too. But what makes him evil? Why is he insane? Why do such opinions make you think he's "CLEARLY" insane and evil? Because of his desire to kill? Or is it the action of killing itself which makes him evil and insane?
I dunno, maybe I'm just talking in circles here, but I'm sincerely interested in how you determine the difference between right and wrong if "it's all just a matter of opinion"...

[JACkory]

Pissin2 said:

*please note that not only have I not talked shit about Bush today, but I also called Kerry a jerk.

I don't think anyone has accused you of having a 100% deficient grasp of the truth...

[Thorngrub]

"evil is just a word"

I'm glad you brought that up, Ampage. It's obvious that I have merely failed in explaining myself properly, because truth be known, I am not saying that evil doesn't exist.

What I was trying to say is that . . . the power inherent in language is what engenders evil, and literally creates it out of nothing.

So I didn't mean to imply there was no such thing as "evil". I meant to try and bring some light to the process by which it is manifested into reality: by the WORD "evil", it is granted its entryway.

I know that probably sounds weird, or difficult to understand. It is difficult to understand. But you see . . .I merely think it important that we should all be aware that just because "evil most certainly exists" DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT in itself be an implication that it MUST EXIST by its nature, or something.

I.E, IT CAN BE VANQUISHED, and reduced to it's original Pandora's Box, which is constructed not of six walls, but rather, of four simple letters: E - V - I - & L .

Dig ?

I'm saying that if we simply did not sit on our asses and think to ourselves that the existence of evil is some kind of undeniable component of our reality, then we wouldn't be continually feeding it into perpetual existance.

It's a little phenomenon referred to as the "status quo".

But the status quo can be changed, gradually, over time.

That is a little phenomenon referred to as a "paradigm shift".

So, in short, I am not saying anyone is WRONG when they claim evil exists. I am saying that by continuing to think that it MUST EXIST, then we are invariably creating the nutrient-rich soil it needs to get its roots down and continue to thrive.

In my humble opinion . . . someone needs to begin weeding this garden.

[Thorngrub]

Just remember that it was Adam & Eve who started namin' shit. Before that, nothing had names. It was necessary to point.


Everything sure went downhill from there, eh?

[JACkory]

I'm saying that if we simply did not sit on our asses and think to ourselves that the existence of evil is some kind of undeniable component of our reality, then we wouldn't be continually feeding it into perpetual existance.

So what your saying is that if we turn a blind eye to the reality of evil in the world that it would go away? No? Okay, your saying that we feed evil's perpetual existance by acknowledging it as an undeniable component of our reality?
Come on, dude.
You say it can be vanquished, but the only solution you offer is that the entire human race just forget that it exists...do you realize how unreasonably Utopian it is to suggest such a thing? Please, let's not pretend that anyone is immune from having a "dark side" or that simply ignoring this dark side is going to make the problem of evil up and fly away.

[JACkory]

In my humble opinion . . . someone needs to begin weeding this garden.

Oh yeah, that's for sure. That's one of the things I like about my religion. It tells me Who's gonna do the weeding.

[JACkory]

Pissin, I like the slogan 'neath your avatar.
But perhaps you might consider adding to it like this:

A new kind of army. Too smart to fight. Too smart to kill. Too smart to want to LIVE in this fucked up world.

Cuz really, an army that doesn't fight and kill, whether it's cuz they're smart or stupid, is a losing army that is easily vanquished.

I just returned from a Veteran's Day presentation and it was a moving experience to honor the men and women who have served this country in the armed forces throughout the years.
I know I've asked you a lot of questions this morning, but would it be too much to ask you one more? Your "Anti-Flag" avatar makes me wonder what your thoughts are about the veterans we honour on this particular day...
Care to elaborate?

[pissin2]

Do you believe in a "moral law" that everyone is born with a subconscious understanding of? If not, then how can anyone truly arbitrate between right and wrong? And if so, where does this "moral law" come from?


Yes I do. I think everyone can feel it in them when they do something wrong. Even if a kid accidentally slips with a knife and murders somebody or an animal, after it happens they're thinking "oh shit, what have I done?" and they know it's wrong. A lot of people will murder and know it's wrong, but still do it because they like it. The there are people that feel it's not wrong at all. Those people are just not mentally stable. How do we know it's wrong, where does it come from? Beats the hell out of me.

[Thorngrub]

Found Ashcroft's quote:

"The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved." - John Ashcroft

Link:
www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/10/news/ashcroft.html

[pissin2]

They're not Too smart to want to LIVE in this fucked up world. They're way smarter than that. That would just be giving up. They actually fight for a lot of things to be changed in this fucked up world, just not with bullets. They're basically anti-war in general. It's about being against fighting wars and dying unjustly for your government. Many people see the upside down flag and take it as disrespect, or think it's unpatriotic. They're not anti the american people. They're just anti many of the things the flag seems to stand for nowadays. Which is actually more patriotic than just sticking a flag on your bumper sticker. They would respect the vets (as do I) but would speak out against the government having sent them there in the first place. I know a lot of it basically seems like a far cry for help, but that's what happens when you're all about peace , love, and unity. Like if there was a draft right now, I wouldn't fucking go. I'd be hiding somewhere. Call me a coward, I don't care. I'm not going to die for my government just because they decide that I should be fighting their war.

[Thorngrub]

JACkory said:

I'm saying that if we simply did not sit on our asses and think to ourselves that the existence of evil is some kind of undeniable component of our reality, then we wouldn't be continually feeding it into perpetual existance.

So what your saying is that if we turn a blind eye to the reality of evil in the world that it would go away? No? Okay, your saying that we feed evil's perpetual existance by acknowledging it as an undeniable component of our reality?
Come on, dude.
You say it can be vanquished, but the only solution you offer is that the entire human race just forget that it exists...do you realize how unreasonably Utopian it is to suggest such a thing? Please, let's not pretend that anyone is immune from having a "dark side" or that simply ignoring this dark side is going to make the problem of evil up and fly away.

[glow=red,2,300]So what your saying is that if we turn a blind eye to the reality of evil in the world that it would go away? No?[/glow] - Of course not.

[glow=red,2,300]Okay, your saying that we feed evil's perpetual existance by acknowledging it as an undeniable component of our reality? [/glow] - Yes.

[glow=green,2,300]You say it can be vanquished, but the only solution you offer is that the entire human race just forget that it exists...do you realize how unreasonably Utopian it is to suggest such a thing?[/glow] I did not mean to offer the "solution" of "forgetting that it exists", that is merely how you interpreted my words. Yes, I realize how "Utopian" it is to suggest such a thing. As far as it being "vanquished", in a manner of speaking, sure, I believe it can be "vanquished", yet the methodology inherent to such an endeavor being carried out successfully has nothing to do with overt tactical offensive strategems, but rather, with the careful understanding of how to allow it to dry up and recede back to it's pandora's box from whence it initially escaped. Hence, my inability to side with the Bush Admin's tactics. Evil cannot be bludgeoned away. That only creates more evil.

In order to "vanquish" evil, we must look into our very own selves, see it hiding within, and then literally CHANGE OUR WAYS, i.e, begin chipping away at the foundation of our STATUS QUO, rather than chipping away at the foundation of our FREEDOM, which is precisely what the Bush Admin is accomplishing by attempting to bludgeon "evil" by going to war. That is naught but a vicious circle, IMO.

[glow=red,2,300]Please, let's not pretend that anyone is immune from having a "dark side" or that simply ignoring this dark side is going to make the problem of evil up and fly away.[/glow]


Thank you for providing me with an excellent point with which to strenghten my own. I never said we should IGNORE this dark side . . . and I also actually made reference to the fact, as you have suggested, that we all have this "dark side" within us. In fact, you have made my own point by stating this. We cannot afford to ignore our own dark sides anymore, that is my whole point.

We must fixate our gazes INWARDS to our own selves, our own Foreign Policy since the mid-40's, and start there.

How did you manage to construe from my previous posts that I even possibly hinted that we should "ignore" this and it would go away? I'm just curious, because obviously my own limitations in the ability to communicate to you caused you to think that. I wish to strive to improve my communicative abilities, in order to avoid being misconstrued in the future, of course.

Have I yet failed to make myself clear -?

[Galactus]

thoRny said:

Found Ashcroft's quote:

"The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved." - John Ashcroft

Link:
www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/10/news/ashcroft.html

That man has lost his mind.

[Thorngrub]

Don't you get what I'm trying to say, JAC -? WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LAY THE BLAME ON OTHERS ANYMORE. That is all we do. Lay the blame on ANYONE BUT OURSELVES. And that is the nature of our problem.

THERE IS NO ONE TO BLAME BUT OURSELVES.

Until we as a People get that through our collective heads (or at least through the majority of our collective heads) -- there shall be no pathways paved towards success, in the struggle vs. "evil".

Our pathway towards true success, in the struggle vs. evil, will only begin when we STOP BLAMING OTHERS FOR THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE BROUGHT DOWN UPON OURSELVES.







But of course, that would take true inwards, Strength, Courage, Honesty, and True Christian Virtue -- real qualities the evangelicals Bush has under his Wing utterly lack.

I am not suggesting YOU lack these qualities; nor am I suggesting anyone one these boards lacks them.

I am simply suggesting that anyone with an earnest Christian heart stand up and WALK the talk.

Melt the polar ice caps of FEAR instilled by this Orwellian administration (and if you honestly don't think it "Orwellian", then you obviously did not read 1984: in that novel THEY MADE UP A WAR to justify going up against a common enemy. Why don't you re-read it again - ?).