Christmas or Holidays?

[rockysigman]

nymphofantasia said:

rockysigman said:

Oy...Passover was and IS celebrated at the same time on the Hebrew calendar every single year, on the 14th night of the Hebrew month of Nisan. Every single year.

The Hebrew calendar is, indeed, not purely lunar, but actually a combination of the solar and lunar calendars. It's based mostly on a lunar calendar, but adds leap months every couple of years to account for the 12 day difference between the solar and lunar years. But this calendar HAS been used by Jews since biblical times.

You are mistaken. The Passover today IS NOT celebrated at the exact same time every year! Meaning the EXACT same days as the previous year. When I have time I can actually post more about this.

You're really confused. I am fully acknowledging that it is not celebrated at the same time on the Christian calendar every year. Sometimes its in March, sometimes its in April. I get that. You just seem to be having trouble rectifying this with the fact that the Hebrew calendar remains different from the Christian calendar. The 14th night of Nisan is the beginning of Passover every single year.

The Hebrew calendar can be rather confusing, with its 13th month that only occurs every couple of years. But I'm really eager to see your evidence that the holiday is not celebrated at the same time on the Hebrew calendar every year. Fourteenth night of Nisan. Always has been.

[rockysigman]

I'm a pretty bad Jew though. I'm really confidant on this issue, but I certainly wouldn't use myself as an authority on too many things Jewish.

Here's something that is really confusing me about Tuatha's argument here though. She is saying that, in biblical times, Passover's celebration was based on a solar calendar. Today, we use a solar calendar. So why wouldn't Passover be falling at the same time on our solar calendar every year? Even if it wasn't falling at the same time that it was in biblical times, it should stand to reason that, if it's celebration was based on the Earth's revolution around the sun in biblical times, and today we are measuring time based on the Earth's revolution around the sun, then it should at least be falling at the same time on our solar calendar every year now.

[Mary]

Am I the only person here at a complete loss to understand the subject of this argument?? So far I gather it has something to do with the Hebrew calendar and the weather in Israel...

*bewilderment*

[shin]

Dee's really putting that Ctrl+V to good use today. Too bad someone's already Ctrl+X'd her brain a long time ago.

[Galactus]

Dee's arguement rests entirely in the belief that everything can be veiwed from a uniqiely "Christian" point of view and that everything can be explained from that perspective. Relevance has nothing to do with any of it. She thinks it's neat and it reinforces her faith.

Ken and chrisfan have a fantasic point as to why she is so fansinating that she can't be ignored...I don't have an answer fot it, but she is very hard to ignore for some reason...sort of car wreck symdrome maybe...you don't really want to see a decapitated body but you always look to see if there is one.

[shin]

We come here to argue and she's prime fodder for argument. It's actually that simple. You go to a YMCA basketball gym and a guy comes up bouncing a basketball and asks you "care for some 1 on 1?" What are you going to do, say no? That's why you're here.

Dee, by contrast, is like Ben Stiller in Dodgeball coming up to everyone and saying "I can take you, sucker, let's go *BUCK BUCK BUCAW*". How dare you say even consider saying no.

[phil]

WOW !! So Tudeda found pictures of snow in Israel !!

Never mind the fact that statistics show that winter average temperatures
never go below 4° to 5° C and that snow is a rare occurance in Israël.

Nevermind ... This is fun !!

[phil]

And so what are you arguing here for Phil?
That Jesus was born in December?

I don't care where or when Jesus was born ...

Contrary to you, I don't believe the bible
is an historical document in the sense of factual stories ...

Biblical texts are not a documentary but a teaching tool ...

[Nepenthe]

Rocky, Today the Jewish calendar is a lunisolar calendar. The Julian and Gregorian Calendars are considered solar, (but not exactly the same as the ancient solar calendars) because their dates do not indicate the moon phase however, most Christians do use a lunisolar calendar in the determination of Easter.

I have a very lengthy study on the ancient celebration date of the Passover. It would take me a very long time to gather all of the information together to post it. And of course we all know how controversial this entire subject has been through the years, that is if you know the history behind the entire Easter/Passover
observance. But here is some interesting information I can point you to that explains in part what I am referring to. The Essene Calendar, which was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, was a Solar Calendar and consisting of 52 weeks and 364 days in a year. They observed the Passover as well as all other festivals at the very same time every year.

Here is some information about this, and unlike what some have just been saying, this is a Jewish tradition, NOT a Christian one. You can read about the Essene calendar and the Dead Sea Scrolls here:

The Jewish Virtual Library

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deadsea.html

The study I have here at home states that the Passover was originally designated to be celebrated 14 days after the spring equinox, which would fall on April 3rd or 4th depending on if you count from the 21st or the 22nd. The main reason being that the seasons and agriculture was tied in with the festivals in ancient times. It was 'fixed'. I do know that the crucifixion fell on a Wednesday, not a Friday. The Passover began at sunset (the observance of the 24 hour day was from sunset to sundown). Again I have a full appendix on this in my Companion Bible and explaining the calendar days of the Passover at that time.

Some scholars (including some Jewish scholars) do believe that the use of the spring equinox March 21st and the + 14 days = April 3rd or 4th depending on if you count from the 21st or 22nd, was indeed the original used to celebrate the Passover. Of course the names of these months were different, but equal pertaining to the equinox.

I know that the Babylonian calendar was adopted by some of the Jewish people after the Babylonian captivity. But I do not believe they calculated the Passover by the moon phases until much later.

Thats just my opinion based on what I have studied. I thought I would just throw it out on the table, much like I did the "conception" date of December 25th.

There are various scholarly opinions and theories out there today. Because I pick the one that makes the most sense to me is my business. I thought I would share this with you, THATS ALL. You can either check it out or ignore it.


Here is an interesting site that I glanced at about ancient calendars.

webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html#bab

[Nepenthe]

Phil, do you honestly think that the weather patterns were the same in Biblical times as they are today? Did you know that Arkansas use to get a lot more snow than it does today? I mean we are talking 3 and 4 feet of snow in the winters 20 and 30 years ago. And it snowed more often. We are lucky if we get 4" much less a foot once or twice in the winter season, if any at all.

[rockysigman]

nymphofantasia said:

Rocky, Today the Jewish calendar is a lunisolar calendar. The Julian and Gregorian Calendars are considered solar, (but not exactly the same as the ancient solar calendars) because their dates do not indicate the moon phase however, most Christians do use a lunisolar calendar in the determination of Easter.

I have a very lengthy study on the ancient celebration date of the Passover. It would take me a very long time to gather all of the information together to post it. And of course we all know how controversial this entire subject has been through the years, that is if you know the history behind the entire Easter/Passover
observance. But here is some interesting information I can point you to that explains in part what I am referring to. The Essene Calendar, which was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, was a Solar Calendar and consisting of 52 weeks and 364 days in a year. They observed the Passover as well as all other festivals at the very same time every year.

Here is some information about this, and unlike what some have just been saying, this is a Jewish tradition, NOT a Christian one. You can read about the Essene calendar and the Dead Sea Scrolls here:

The Jewish Virtual Library

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deadsea.html

The study I have here at home states that the Passover was originally designated to be celebrated 14 days after the spring equinox, which would fall on April 3rd or 4th depending on if you count from the 21st or the 22nd. The main reason being that the seasons and agriculture was tied in with the festivals in ancient times. It was 'fixed'. I do know that the crucifixion fell on a Wednesday, not a Friday. The Passover began at sunset (the observance of the 24 hour day was from sunset to sundown). Again I have a full appendix on this in my Companion Bible and explaining the calendar days of the Passover at that time.

Some scholars (including some Jewish scholars) do believe that the use of the spring equinox March 21st and the + 14 days = April 3rd or 4th depending on if you count from the 21st or 22nd, was indeed the original used to celebrate the Passover. Of course the names of these months were different, but equal pertaining to the equinox.

I know that the Babylonian calendar was adopted by some of the Jewish people after the Babylonian captivity. But I do not believe they calculated the Passover by the moon phases until much later.

Thats just my opinion based on what I have studied. I thought I would just throw it out on the table, much like I did the "conception" date of December 25th.

There are various scholarly opinions and theories out there today. Because I pick the one that makes the most sense to me is my business. I thought I would share this with you, THATS ALL. You can either check it out or ignore it.


Here is an interesting site that I glanced at about ancient calendars.

webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html#bab

I would love for you to point out anything in here that contradicts anything that I said. Especially my assertion that Passover starts on the 14th night of Nisan every single year.

[Kensterberg]

OK, I think I have this thing figured out now. For almost any position, particularly something as vague and controversial as Biblical interpretation, there is always both a scholarly concensus and a minority position (or many minority positions), and sometimes the honest answer is we really don't know and it's just a matter of probabilities. A scholar can embrace a minority view (or two) without being completely outside of the concensus in their academic discipline. When I was actively studying Myceneaen Greece and Minoan Crete, a review of all the available literature resulted in my agreeing with the minority regarding dating of certain very important levels at the Cretan palace of Knossos.

And at least some of the things that TDD is arguing in favor of here are legitimate minority viewpoints within the Biblical archaeological field. Some are waaaaaay out there, but if she showed up at a conference with a paper in support of any one of these, it would not be enough (by itself) to label here as a devotee of fringe theories.

However, there is a difference between championing a single dissenting view and embracing every theory you find that is off the beaten path. The result here is that she's not talking about a single problem in the current concensus, she's saying that we've gotten huge chunks of history (and prehistory) wrong. And when you do that, well, you're putting yourself into a fringe position, and people just aren't going to take you seriously. Instead of being able to participate in a discussion on specific problems within the academic community, you're locked outside and hit with the label of (at best) fringe thinking and pseudo-science.

And that's what we have here. Even if Dee hit on something where the accepted wisdom is wrong, and she had a better answer, she'd have a hard time getting us to listen to her. Every argument she brings up now is tainted with the stain of her other positions.

So I am going to try real hard to do the following. First, I'm not gonna take the bait that so often gets thrown out for us to all come in and try to correct any one of her misperceptions. Second, I'm gonna try to avoid getting into these sorts of discussions until I can fairly listen to whatever she may be saying. I realized today that no matter what TDD says right now, I'm just not in the mood to listen, and it isn't fair to expect her to listen to me if I'm not gonna do the same for her.

[Nepenthe]

Sorry Rocky, I wasn't aware that you celebrated the Passover (that is if you do observe it), or that most Jewish people celebrate the Passover 14 days after the spring equinox of March 21st, which would be around April 3rd or 4th. I was under the assumption that it fell at a different time period in either March or April and is a movable feast, much like the Christian Easter is. Maybe you could explain this to me a bit more?

[Nepenthe]

Ken have you ever participated in a Theology conference or a Biblical Archeology conference? I had no idea that you were that involved in Biblical archeology.

when you try to combine my beliefs and my studies into this neat little package, you assume WAY too much ken, you have no idea what is out there really today. Basically all you have mentioned so far is wikipedia and mainstream television programs like those on the history channel. That isn't real research ken.

I could send you to a very good site about archaeological finds and about this very subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Essenes. You would be surprised at some of the things they have found. But I really don't see the point. Not too mention other finds that would indeed cause history to be re-written quite a bit.

[rockysigman]

nymphofantasia said:

Sorry Rocky, I wasn't aware that you celebrated the Passover (that is if you do observe it), or that most Jewish people celebrate the Passover 14 days after the spring equinox of March 21st, which would be around April 3rd or 4th. I was under the assumption that it fell at a different time period in either March or April and is a movable feast, much like the Christian Easter is. Maybe you could explain this to me a bit more?

You seem to have no understanding of how the Hebrew calendar works. You keep fixing its dates to the Christian calendar, and for the life of me, I cannot understand why.

The Hebrew calendar is shorter than the Christian calendar, however, it has an added leap month added every two to three years in order to have it align more with the solar (Christian) calendar. You noted yourself that it is a lunisolar calendar, but you did not take the time to actually learn what this means.

The Hebrew calendar has 12 months, each with 29 or 30 days. Every two or three years there is an added month to account for the 11 day difference between the solar and lunar calendars. It repeats on a 19 year cycle, with an extra month added 7 times within every 19 year cycle.[

Passover begins on the 14th night of Nisan every single year on the Hebrew calendar. EVERY SINGLE ONE. It moves around on the Christian calendar because the Hebrew calendar does not exactly align with the Christian calendar. So no, PASSOVER IS NOT CELEBRATED ON APRIL 3RD OR 4TH EVERY YEAR. However, and this is the point that you don't seem to understand, IT IS CELEBRATED BEGINNING ON THE 14TH NIGHT OF NISAN EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

Please, please, please show me something that says that the celebration of Passover is on a different date on the Hebrew calendar every year. Because at the moment, you just seem to be bringing in a whole bunch of information that has absolutely nothing to do with what we were debating.