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Post by rockysigman on Dec 27, 2005 14:25:44 GMT -5
Rocky, they did not use a lunar calendar in Biblical times. The Hebrew calendar is lunar. |
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 27, 2005 14:26:04 GMT -5
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
hhhmm seems it would be a bit too cold Phil to be doing this in December......
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Post by Kensterberg on Dec 27, 2005 14:29:04 GMT -5
TDD -- You're celebrating the conception of Christ? By your own posts, you've placed the birth of Jesus at the end of September, which would mean that you agree that celebrating the birth of Christ immediately after the winter solstice is an arbitrary decision. I was born in December, does this mean that I should celebrate my birth in March/April, which is when my conception date would be?
And if God did indeed impregnate the virgin Mary, why did He have to do it nine months prior to birth? Couldn't He have done it at any point in time and just made the length of the pregnancy fit into His plan? Sorry to sound facetious, but this is a little ridiculous.
FWIW, I don't know of a single serious scholar who argues that Jesus was literally born on December 25. Every known European and Near Eastern culture has had a celebration around the time of the winter solstice, and this is the tradition that the Christians incorporated in picking this entrenched celebration for the time of the birth of Christ. Easter, which is readily datable, on the other hand, had to remain at the proper point in the calendar. Since the events leading up to the crucifiction are so specific, it would be impossible to sell any other time of year as proper for the anniversary. It's worth noting that while the secular trappings of Easter (rabbits, chicks, eggs) are the sorts of fertility icons associated with spring festivals around Europe, the specifics of the Easter story itself are uniquely Christian, as it should be. Few Christians would argue that there has been any movement towards "taking the Christ out of Easter," and I'd question the sanity of any who did.
Question for the devout Christians here: How many of you went to church on Sunday? For how long?
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Post by Galactus on Dec 27, 2005 14:29:07 GMT -5
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. hhhmm seems it would be a bit too cold Phil to be doing this in December...... 60 degrees is too cold? Pussies. |
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Post by phil on Dec 27, 2005 14:33:06 GMT -5
Tudeda ~ Summer in ISRAËL is so hot and dry, you'd be hard pressed
to find any green pastures ...
But guess what ... Winter brings RAIN ... !!
Sheppards in these parts of the world travel around
with their flocks to where and when the grass grow ...
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 27, 2005 14:36:01 GMT -5
Rocky, they did not use a lunar calendar in Biblical times. The Hebrew calendar is lunar. Yes I know this Rocky, but the Calendar of Biblical times was not a lunar calendar, the Jewish calendar of today was adopted later. Would you like me to pull it out of the Bible for you? The Passover was celebrated at the same time every year. Today Easter is celebrated on the Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon day on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox day 21 March. The Jewish Passover of today is also celebrated at a different time every year. This was not the case in Ancient times. |
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Post by Kensterberg on Dec 27, 2005 14:37:58 GMT -5
5 DAY FORECAST for Jerusalem ... Partly cloudy today ... !! Tuesday 55°F (13°C) | 40°F (4°C) Wednesday 57°F (14°C) | 41°F (5°C) Thursday 61°F (16°C) | 45°F (7°C) Friday 66°F (19°C) | 51°F (11°C) Saturday 66°F (19°C) | 48°F (9°C) Now was is it they were doing with their sheeps in december ... ?? Phil, what happens to the grass in the winter time? Do you honestly think sheep would graze dead dried up brown grass? There are plenty of shrubs and grasses that will stay green quite happily in these temps. Hell, my mesquite tree is only now dropping ANY of its leaves, and we've had some considerably colder weather than that. I've got some other plants in my yard that would be "grazable" right now. Heck, my mastiff keeps finding green grass or weeds in the corners to chew up herself. (FWIW, there are two rules to mastiff behaviour: (1) if it doesn't move, eat it; (2) if it moves, stop it! then eat it). And El Paso's climate isn't that far off from the Middle East, at least according to the ex-patriot Arabs and the Jews I know who've been both places. |
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Post by rockysigman on Dec 27, 2005 14:43:18 GMT -5
The Hebrew calendar is lunar. Yes I know this Rocky, but the Calendar of Biblical times was not a lunar calendar, the Jewish calendar of today was adopted later. Would you like me to pull it out of the Bible for you? The Passover was celebrated at the same time every year. Today Easter is celebrated on the Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon day on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox day 21 March. The Jewish Passover of today is also celebrated at a different time every year. This was not the case in Ancient times. Oy...Passover was and IS celebrated at the same time on the Hebrew calendar every single year, on the 14th night of the Hebrew month of Nisan. Every single year. The Hebrew calendar is, indeed, not purely lunar, but actually a combination of the solar and lunar calendars. It's based mostly on a lunar calendar, but adds leap months every couple of years to account for the 12 day difference between the solar and lunar years. But this calendar HAS been used by Jews since biblical times. |
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 27, 2005 14:43:26 GMT -5
Ken, why are you telling me this? I know that scholars do not believe Jesus was born on December 25th, that is the entire point to my post. I have very high respect for Bullinger and I know how to count. I use the Bible for references to Jesus. And if you can read and add you can indeed pinpoint his conception and birthdate. Thats all I am saying.
Phil I highly doubt that the Shepherds would be outside in the winter time AT NIGHT, in Israel tending to their flocks. I mean get real.....
And so what are you arguing here for Phil? That Jesus was born in December?
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 27, 2005 14:47:25 GMT -5
Israel winter 2000   |
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Post by Kensterberg on Dec 27, 2005 14:52:15 GMT -5
TDD -- your earlier posts seemed to be taking issue with the fact that Christmas is a pagan celebration that the Christians co-opted for their own purposes. Then you stated that Jesus would have been conceived around Dec. 25, for what purpose I'm not sure. It seemed that you were still trying to make this celebration uniquely Christian, when it just isn't.
So if you agree that Jesus wasn't born c. Dec. 25, and that many of the traditions we associate with Christmas have pagan origins, then you're on the same page as everyone else.
As for the Hebrew calendar, I'll have to trust that Rocky knows this better than you or I. Most traditional cultures use lunar calendars, and I'd find it hard to understand why the Jewish people would, AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish diaspora, arbitrarily (but uniformly) change their calendar to a lunar basis just as the Romans are adopting a uniform solar calendar.
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 27, 2005 14:53:12 GMT -5
Yes I know this Rocky, but the Calendar of Biblical times was not a lunar calendar, the Jewish calendar of today was adopted later. Would you like me to pull it out of the Bible for you? The Passover was celebrated at the same time every year. Today Easter is celebrated on the Sunday after the first ecclesiastical full moon day on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox day 21 March. The Jewish Passover of today is also celebrated at a different time every year. This was not the case in Ancient times. Oy...Passover was and IS celebrated at the same time on the Hebrew calendar every single year, on the 14th night of the Hebrew month of Nisan. Every single year. The Hebrew calendar is, indeed, not purely lunar, but actually a combination of the solar and lunar calendars. It's based mostly on a lunar calendar, but adds leap months every couple of years to account for the 12 day difference between the solar and lunar years. But this calendar HAS been used by Jews since biblical times. You are mistaken. The Passover today IS NOT celebrated at the exact same time every year! Meaning the EXACT same days as the previous year. When I have time I can actually post more about this. |
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Post by Kensterberg on Dec 27, 2005 14:54:20 GMT -5
TDD -- you do know that Rocky is Jewish, right?
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 27, 2005 14:55:59 GMT -5
Both Easter and the Jewish passover is derived by the full moon today. This was not the case in Biblical times. Again, when I have more time I will post more about this. Maybe later today.
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Post by Nepenthe on Dec 27, 2005 14:56:19 GMT -5
Yes I do realize that Ken.
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