2008 Presidential Election

[Thorngrub]

/end sorry sarcasm


I've had a real bad day with a bunch of other issues that all compounded together.
I need to go home.
peace out

[Thorngrub]

Matheus you're alright. Thanks for your thoughtful response, it helps me a lot. I am not on these boards to get people to agree with me or to pat each other on the back over how correct we are. I only respond to issues when I feel I want to submit my own opinion on something, and I generally do that if I catch something which I disagree with, and feel it necessary to point out that hey, that aint' right. I'm on another message board where someone posted that FOX video in order to deride Nader for using the term Uncle Tom. When I tried defending that Nader didn't necessarily do anything wrong, I was gangjumped as if I were totally out of line. When I kept reiterating my point to get below the surface of what Nader was saying -- they would have none of it. Its not that I feel like I should "win" the argument - -not at all. Its that nobody over there seemed to possess the ability to cut through the surface bullshit and engage me in a fair & balanced discussion wherein we each digested each other's points, if you know what I mean. Especially trying to get below the surface technicalities - that was a lost cause on my behalf.


Of course its all blown over and relegated to a petty internet exchange in hindsight, but you see, that also bugs me. Is this entire internet exhcange we're having fundamentally "petty"? That irks me. I guess I should've known better than to try and join in on the Raining Of Their Parade - which, might I remind you, is My Parade too ! I voted for Obama! And not only that, I voted for him as NOT "the lesser of two evils", but perforce as Good OVER fuckin' Evil! I even posted an essay to that exact effect. Much good it did me, for daring to even exhale on our sparkly dream of President-elect Obama. See, I should have known to WAIT 72 HOURS at least while all the liberals finished stroking each other off, before daring to suggest that FOX was way out of line with their attempt to crucify Ralph Nader for LACKING TACT.

*gasp*, Nooooo... ! You don't say. . . ! Nader ? ! Lacking *gulp* TACT?! OH my, what is the world coming to. . . . yadda yadda whatever /

[strat-0]

You go, Thorn.

[Thorngrub]

"Funniest thing I've heard all week... Fox News giving Ralph Nader shit for lacking tact. "

Exactly.

[Thorngrub]

THAT was the greater outrage, for me - - watching these snakeoil salesmen and tools for the fundyestablishment [FOX] try and score "points" by lassoing up nader for misuse of a term - - - it was sickening to me and I'm still shocked that my cohorts on that other board do not share this exact sentiment, frankly. I guess they can be forgiven however, considering we were all still somewhat blindsided by the fireworks bursting in air over Obama's victory. I think they're somewhat justified in complaining about Nader and/or myself bumming their high. So its all good

[Galactus]

Thorn we said pretty much the same thing. Of course Nader can say what he wants how he wants...though I have to say I think you can point out what a dick Fox News guy was without the need to defend what Nader said. I think Matheus is right using a cutesy, yet semi-racist, turn of phase threatens to negate any point Nader is actually trying make and on that Nader isn't making any point that a million other pundits aren't also making. So yeah, in the end it was all about getting Nader some screen time. I wasn't offended by what he said so mach as I think it's just representative of how irrelevant Nader is in 2008. As if it weren't obvious by now those who ganged up on thorn were the infamous sedakans, but none of us argued with what he was trying to say only how he chose to say it...and seriously would any of us ever stand up for Foxnews? Thorn, I just don't think he needed to say it the way he said it, I don't think race baiting is an admirable to get attention no matter your point. It's not as if he said some underlying truth that couldn't have been brought up without being a dick...he said Obama should be held accountable for the promises he made. Well, yeah. I mean of course. Why did he have to use "uncle tom" to say that? Would he have said the same had McCain gotten elected? He would've said the same about promises but he wouldn't have used "uncle tom" because it wouldn't have made sense. The fact is that it was played that way just so some asshat like Shepard Smith would go after it so he could spend the next few days explaining what he really meant and remind us all that we aren't really listening to Ralph Nader because if we were we'd completely ignore what uncle tom means to everyone else and realize he's just trying to give some advice here. On second thought Nader is a bigger douche then Shepard Smith.

[Thorngrub]

But I felt it necessary to defend Nader. So there was a need for that -- if I see someone I respect (I know that few around here have any respect left for Nader, I'm not one of them) getting ganged up on, I'm going to jump to their defense.


But you know what I find really interesting Mantis - - is that when Matheus pointed out that Nader was being provocative - on purpose - -possibly because that's what it takes to even get a news spot - - and that unfortunately for Nader it backfired on him - - as he probably should have known, but apparantly didn't foresee - - well then, that shed a light on Nader that actually made me respect him MORE. Like when Nader refused to be cowed by the reporter, and did not take back using the term - I nearly applauded. Which seems the polar opposite of what everyone else felt. Which is fine of course. But I'm pointing out that I felt the urge to applaud Nader for standing by his crusty old guns.

As for Nader being irrelevent in 2008, I feel I need to take the pains to point out to you, that should be modified to specifically point out that his candidacy for the president is what is "irrelevant", NOT HIM. His ideas and more to the point years of political experience should not be the BABY thrown out with the BATHWATER.

[Thorngrub]

Nov 7, 2008 13:19:59 GMT -5 Galactus said:

Why did he have to use "uncle tom" to say that? Would he have said the same had McCain gotten elected?

That's a good question - (the first one) - - indeed, why did he feel it necessary to use the term Uncle Tom? WAS it (as Matheus suggests) intentional provocation, to get noticed, and which backfired ? Or was it that Nader was being sincere in trying to get his message across, and picked the wrong 'metaphor'?

Here's an example of some "good" from this fallout. At least one person in the world (myself) is going to head straight to the wiki entry on Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe and determine once and for all what all this brouhaha is about. I'll report back with my findings when I can.

[Thorngrub]

Nov 7, 2008 13:19:59 GMT -5 Galactus said:

The fact is that it was played that way just so some asshat like Shepard Smith would go after it so he could spend the next few days explaining what he really meant and remind us all that we aren't really listening to Ralph Nader because if we were we'd completely ignore what uncle tom means to everyone else and realize he's just trying to give some advice here. On second thought Nader is a bigger douche then Shepard Smith.

That's cool Mantis, and now that you put it like this, although I still agree that race-baiting is uncool, I'm still of the opinion that Smith is the bigger douche, and if anything, knowing that Nader is trying questionable tactics to air out his explanations, I'm inclined to think more highly of Ralph because he isn't afraid to play dirty - -which is unfortunately a necessity now, thanks to the precedent set by the original Dirty Politicians, the Stalwarts of the Republican party (who have now evolved into the GOP).

I don't know if the Half-Breeds of the Republican Party from the late eighteen-hundreds ended up evolving / forking over into what we largely know as the Democratic Party today, but it wouldn't surprise me none if something along those lines happened; i.e, maybe a lot of the Half-Breeds just decided to turn Democrat or something like that.

But what I do know, is I admire Ralph Nader and his mind and experience 1000% more than any Fox reporter, including Mr. Smith. Who might even have a hat not made from ass.

[Galactus]

I still have to disagree, I don't think Nader has brought anything substantive to the political table since 2000. No, I don't blame him for Gore losing nor do I think it's wrong of him to have run in subsequent elections. In 2000 Nader was proposing solutions, he was talking about how things should and I respected him for that. I would've voted for him had he been on the ballot in NC. Since then he's just a bitchy media whore though. Especially since Obama's been running, he can't open his mouth about him without slipping in some barely veiled race comment. I have no idea why you'd be proud of Nader for being unapologetic about his race baiting...and for the record he didn't misuse the term, he said exactly what he meant to say. Over the course of the election I come to believe that Nader probably is a racist, but that acceptable fifties way. I still don't understand why he couldn't have made the same point using any of hundred different, less respectable, phrases. Being provocative is one thing being a douche is something else. Nader was being a douche.

[Thorngrub]

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I think FOX was the bigger douche; therefore, we simply must agree to disagree.

~


I'd like to point out now that this discussion has fared very well here, with great insight provided by both Matheus and Mantis. I really appreciate it.

*on to the wiki entry on Uncle Tom's Cabin*

[Thorngrub]

hey guys ! It just occured to my *why* this thorny one could even *possibly* consider defending what would normally be considered a perfectly reprehensible thing for Nader to say.


Its because, frankly, I do not believe for one second he is or ever was racist, not in a 50s way or anything like that. I applaud Nader for having the balls to come out and use that term in a frank manner for the explicit reason that I feel if you take race OUT of the equation - - that THAT is precisely the OPPOSITE of RACISM.


See what I mean? If I myself were black, I would applaud any white person who had the guts to not walk on eggshells around me. And frankly, THAT is precisely what I think Nader is "guilty" of, if anything. Guilty as charged of being 100% FREE of racism.

i.e, Its definitely a matter of reverse or double-reverse racism; a finely balanced twi-edged thing that you can't blame anyone for wanting to just avoid altogether. Hence: I applaud Nader for saying "fuck that, I'll speak openly and honestly and frankly I will call a spade for a spade and if the overly sensitive American Public can't handle that then screw em". Furthermore, I would think that at least the intelligent contingency of the black community would applaud him for that, too.

[Thorngrub]

Uncle Tom
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the racial term.

Uncle Tom is a pejorative for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation.

The term Uncle Tom comes from the title character of Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, although there is debate over whether the character himself is deserving of the pejorative attributed to him.

Stowe never meant Uncle Tom to be a degrading character, but the term as a pejorative has developed based on how later versions of the character, stripped of his strength, were depicted on stage.

It is commonly used to describe black people whose political views or allegiances are considered by their critics as detrimental to blacks as a group.




Other terms with similar meanings:

A more offensive term with the same meaning is "house nigger" and its euphemism "house slave."

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According to this slight clarification from wiki's entry, there exists (obviously) an equal argument for defending Nader's use of the term as being not only common -- but more to the point, an actual defense of the black people. Which WAS precisely Nader's point - if you bothered listening to everything he said in his own defense, in that clip.

[Thorngrub]

furthermore -- Nader's point was NOT limited to just blacks, of course - - yet another reason which immunizes him against the charge of racism. He was talking about the poor - - and trying to hold Obama accountable for them, because O always talks about the middle class apparantly. Hey I think Obama probably will also not discriminate, but it is clear to anyone who listened to Nader in that clip that Ralph is the last person who should be pointed out as being racist.


I hope this goes well towards justifying my outrage at Fox, and not Nader.

I mean, seriously, which should we be more up in arms against? The *gasp* use of the term Uncle Tom or glossing over the more serious point which is trying to hold Obama accountable for poor people from all walks of life, creed, and color. Its all I was trying to say.

[samplestiltskin]

I thought along the same lines as you thorny - that the use of the term Uncle Tom was perfectly suited if he was using the strict definition. But the more black people I talk to, the more I become aware that NONE of them feel even potentially betrayed by our new president, in fact every single black person I've talked to is proud and elated to have him in office. So I guess I just let it all go. I think Nader wanted press, I think he knew exactly the furor it would incite, but I don't see that what he said was morally offensive in the slightest. Only if you want to take it that way I guess. America is such a mine-field of political-correctness these days I think everyone is hypersensitive to the slightest perceived un-PC-ness.