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Post by phil on Sept 1, 2004 6:21:41 GMT -5
If looks could kill
They probably will
in Games Without Frontiers
War without tears ...
Jeux sans frontières
(Peter Gabriel)
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Post by JesusLooksLikeMe on Sept 1, 2004 6:26:45 GMT -5
What's the story on Chinese attitudes towards Japan then? Where does that come from?
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Post by JesusLooksLikeMe on Sept 1, 2004 6:31:56 GMT -5
Btw, no matter what Peter Gabriel lyrics might imply, I don't think China should have been rewarded for their appalling human rights record with the award of hosting the '08 olympics.
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Post by phil on Sept 1, 2004 6:40:25 GMT -5
Throughtout the centuries, there has been no love lost
between the Chineese and Japaneese ...
Things got kind of ugly during the invasion of China
by Japan in the 30's ...
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Post by JesusLooksLikeMe on Sept 1, 2004 7:04:49 GMT -5
Hmm, I know plenty of European, American and Middle Eastern history. But the Far East is a complete mystery to me. I didn't even know Japan invaded China in the 30s. That's pretty shameful I guess,
I've seen The Last Samurai though. Dunno if that counts for anything.
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Post by phil on Sept 1, 2004 8:01:38 GMT -5
Japan invaded Manchouria (1931), China, Korea
all the indochina French colonies
Malaysia, the Philipines ...
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Post by Ryosuke on Sept 1, 2004 8:07:08 GMT -5
Not sure if phil is taking jllm at face value or just playing along...
Yeah, the Asia Cup soccer tournament was a huge anti-Japan fest for the Chinese. The national anthem was booed throughout, even when the team was playing against some Middle Eastern country that no one has heard of (which I can live with to be honest, since I'm guessing it's pretty much par for the course in international soccer - and I really don't care enough about our anthem, or the national soccer team for that matter). But the constant harassing of fans (when one Chinese fan was asked why they were throwing food at Japanese fans, the reply was something along the lines of: "so what - they were dropping BOMBS on us during the war!") was uncalled for and irksome.
As for why they hate us so much, yeah, they're obviously still bitter at us for the atrocities we committed there, and some of the unbelievably stupid moves that our idiot politicians insist on making (the prime minister worshipping at a shrine that honors the very war criminals that were responsible for leading the country into madness during the last century, anyone?) certainly don't help. And they want us to apologize (the Japanese argument is that past prime ministers have apologized, the Chinese argument is that it's not enough, or that the wording of the apologies isn't good enough for them to count as an apology). And they want Japanese history textbooks to stop glorifying the war (note: they don't) or pretend that atrocities weren't committed during it (note: they don't).
The explanation that the Japanese media give us (and I read the Asahi Newspaper, which tends to be one of the more liberal and less nationalistic major broadsheets in Japan) is that, in light of Tiananmen Square, the new generation of Chinese youths are given an anti-Japanese education during their upbringing in order to direct disaffection away from the Chinese government and towards their neighbors across the Japan Sea. I don't know jack shit about education in China so I can't really prove or disprove this, but it does on the surface seem to explain why so many Chinese seem to believe that we refuse to acknowledge our war crimes (I've been living in Japan for over a decade now, and I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't acknowledge them - unless seeing extremists explaining their views on TV counts), especially considering the lack of freedom of speech there.
But in any case, the behavior of Chinese fans during the Asia Cup was all over the news here, so it's certainly exacerbated Japanese sentiment of the Chinese, and of course, this in turn will worsen how the Chinese view us even further (although it's hard to believe that it can get worse), so we're pretty fucked. At least our relationship with South Korea is improving...
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Post by RocDoc on Sept 2, 2004 14:07:02 GMT -5
'Face value', you say?
Hmmmm. The inscrutable Phil.~ Now THAT sort of ugly reaction during by the Olympics by either of those 2 groups would certainly be unwelcome. Plus, with information about that history, with my ignorance nearly rivaling Jesus'(  ...it sure shows that all the countries around the world(or nearly so)have an ugly episode here or there. No angels exist among nations when seeking maximum positioning for your country in uncertain times... ...tho I certainly buy that the Chinese are educating their kids to keep their 'righteous' rage alive, simply to distract them from the unfairness of how their government restricts them.... Pakistan and many uniformly economically depressed nations in the middle east are doing the very same regarding Israel, 'the West' in general and the USA in particular. Not realizing that they're doing such a stereotypically Western thing by always blaming someone else for 100% of all their troubles. I'm surprised no-one has shipped a load of PI lawyers over there to just SUE our asses.
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Post by phil on Sept 2, 2004 14:19:30 GMT -5
Of course, we know all there is to know
about the Middle East, Asia and we certainly
don't have any bias of our own ...
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Post by RocDoc on Sept 2, 2004 15:36:47 GMT -5
...inscrutable, yet again...
Whatever DO you mean, Phil?
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Post by maarts on Sept 2, 2004 17:44:54 GMT -5
Ryo- is Japan thinking about boycotting the Beijing Games?
The Boxer War happened about 100 years ago, WWII,s about 60 years gone now and the Dutch have learned to forgive their enemies, simply because of education and getting on with our own business.
Two very important lessons to be learned by all parties concerned in scuffles all around the world. Politicians claiming to needing to learn lessons from the violent past and yet refuse to educate their children in the perils of conflict, bigotry and hatred towards their enemies and the need for forgiveness, stability, peace and cooperation to deal with the hassles of the modern world, are hypocrites.
As far as bias goes- think for a minute outside of what the newsreports say (like now, with the hostage crisis in Russia- how many people have actually now got anti-Chechnya-sentiments? Mmm? Well, read some about the atrocities committed by an unforgiving Russian army when they bombed this little state into oblivion- of course it still is no excuse for holding civilian children hostage, but you get my point....) and try to understand why certain groups act and think the way they do...
I keep on thinking- would we have so much hatred and misunderstanding in this world if we stopped interfering with all wars and feel that we have to foist our beliefs, regulations and sense of humanitarianism onto others?
But then again, I'm reminded what kind of creature we really are: warlike, territorial and barbarian, even in an Armani suit.
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Post by Ryosuke on Sept 3, 2004 1:21:54 GMT -5
Heh. All hell would break loose if that ever happened, but no, I don't think it's even discussed as a possibility. That would be a bit of an overreaction. And the Chinese government to their credit did their best to keep things in control (the state-controlled media implored its citizens, futilely, I might add, to behave, and they provided tight security to make sure that the Japanese fans were protected), so boycotting wouldn't make sense anyway.
I dunno, I do try to be as tolerant and understanding as possible, but just seeing all that loathing and derision directed towards you with such explicitness can and does inspire some resentment in you, on a gut level.
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Post by JesusLooksLikeMe on Sept 3, 2004 9:54:57 GMT -5
Yeah, it's the same for us English whenever our teams play in Scotland and Wales. They fucking loathe us.
I'm not sure about all this Dutch forgiveness maarts. I'm not really seeing the love when Holland plays Germany at football.
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Post by maarts on Sept 3, 2004 19:21:22 GMT -5
Just before Euro 2004 there was a big poll, checking up on the animosity between Holland and Germany before their match. Was there still a deep resentment? The media thought so- the German press were smirking when the Dutch had to qualify in a two-match play-off with Scotland and lost the first match, only to shudder when the Dutch trounced the hapless Scots (coached by German legend Bertie Vogts) 6-0 the next time around.
The poll showed that the animosity was only on the sportsfield, like a tough opponent you always like to beat. About 75% admitted not being at all interested in the 'deeper' implications of a Holland-Germany match for they had not been in the war and, outside of the usual stereotypes about Germans, did not care about any personal feelings between the populations.
But that doesn't mean we like to rip into them if possible...the chant 'Schade Deutschland, alles ist vorbei... ('Too bad, Germany, everything's over') is part of our vocabulary and is compulsory German to be taught to our youngsters....
Of course I'm not mentioning the hooligan-dickheads who use the past to vent their present frustrations upon others....
But Holland-Germany is these days like a match between the Yankees and Mets.....a good old-fashioned rivalry).
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Post by PC on Sept 3, 2004 20:15:32 GMT -5
Yeah, it's the same for us English whenever our teams play in Scotland and Wales. They fucking loathe us.I understand that. And I don't think Ireland and Northern Ireland are particularly fond of England either.  But don't feel bad. I live in America, I think just about every other country in the world hates us right now. NP: Talking Heads - 77 (song: Uh-Oh, Love Comes to Town)
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...it sure shows that all the countries around the world(or nearly so)have an ugly episode here or there. No angels exist among nations when seeking maximum positioning for your country in uncertain times...
