Religion, Theology, and all that good stuff

[kmc]

Even more important in the concept, Dee, is the tenuous factual basis of the Iliad.

Seriously, why is this even being discussed? What possible tie could sun worshippers from the semi factual at best account of the Iliad have to do with Jesus?

[kmc]

In the future, Dee, you will also observe that three distinctive theories about the nature of anything imply no consensus. Hence, your statement #171 might have been posited with a bit of skepticism.

[kmc]

shin is God, anyway.

[kmc]

I mean, shame on me for even having this discussion. Who gives a shit what some tribe alluded to in the "by-all-counts" historically inadmissible Iliad account had to do with Jesus? I withdraw. No relevance.

[Rit]

Condescesion, JAC?

i'm also wary of the kind of subterfuge people hide behind in order to keep their pristine fairyland views intact. I find i have no patience for your "wounded" self either.

It's pretty simple: You want to be treated with kid-gloves because you 'have a right to be'.

-----------
i could have tremendous discussions with you about theological talking points. You would not see its like on these boards. But your arrogance has voided any such possibility. I never once was not open to discussions of this sort with you. But when you hit me over the head with utter idiocy, and expect me to "be understanding", i have no compassion.

[Rit]

Do as you will.

[Nepenthe]

KMC, this is history. If the Greeks were from the tribe of Dan then it would have everything in the world to do with the Bible. They were known for trying to "dominate" other tribes. My point earlier was that this seems to be the case unto this day with the Greek philosophy and those that always bring this up to counter what Jesus taught. Jesus taught from the old testament, Jesus was from the tribe of Judah and Levi through his mother Mary.

The Danuna are known from Egyptian, Hittite, and classical sources. In the historical sources, the Danuna are known by many different names such as Denyen, Danunites, Danaoi, Danaus, Danaids, Dene, Danai, Danaian.

The earliest Egyptian text is the El-Amarna letters (mid 14th c. BCE), which tells of Pharaoh Amenhotep IV's vassal, the king of the Phoenician City of Tyre, Abimilki. The el-Amarna letter (no. 151) tells of the king of Danuna’s death and that his brother became king and his land is at peace (Moran 1992: 238). The Danuna next appear during the reign of Ramesses III eighth year in 1188 BCE at his mortuary temple of Medinet Habu. The relief tells that their was a confederation of Philistines, Tjeker, Shelelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh that united to attack Egypt (Pritchard 1969: 262-263).

The other text that is dated to the end of Ramesses III reign in about 1164 BCE is the Papyrus Harris.
Ramesses himself tell us his victory over the Sea Peoples:

"I slew the Denyen in their islands, while the Tjeker and the Philistines
were made ashes. The Sherden and the Weshesh of the Sea were
nonexistent, captured all together and brought in captivity to Egypt like
the sands of the shore (Pritchard 1969: 260-261)."

The final Egyptian text that is associated with the Danuna is the Onomasticon of Amenope. Amenope
apparently lived during the 20th Dynasty. The text itself dates to the 22nd Dynasty. The text (No. 244)
mentions the Dene and Gardiner (1968:125) suggests identifiying the Dene with the Danuna or Danaoi that may refer to a tribe living in the plain of Argos.

Besides Egyptian texts, there are Hittite and Classical sources that mention the Danuna. The 8th century BCE bilingual inscription from Karatepe tells how king Azitwadda expanded the Plain of Adana and restored his people the Danunites (Pritchard 1969: 262). The classical source that mention the Danuna is an aspect of Greek mythology where Egypt played an important part in the story of the wanderings of Io and the tragedy of her descendents, the Danaids (Kakosy 1995:4-5)


Someone mentioned Buddhism earlier. I just finished an essay about the Mummies of the Tarim Basin, the Chinese goverment has been excavating there since the early 70's. There were earlier archeologists that excavated there in the late 1800's early 1900's. They have found thousands of skeletal remains and the most well preserved naturally mummified humans in the world there. The Chinese archeologists now realize and accept that these were an Indo-European origin and they flourised there for many many years. They were wearing plaid celtic clothing that was identical to those found in Germany and Austria at the Halstatt site. They also found a Greek death mask, a Phrygian hat, Celtic Druid hats and a lot of plaid clothing buried with them.

Every heard of Joseph's Checkered Coat of many Colors?

Do you know what they found in the Buddhist monasteries in China? Have you ever heard of the Tocharians? these people were identified as the Tocharoi, a tribe mentioned in classical Greek writings as having lived in Bactria (eastern Iran and Afghanistan). It is now believed that they played a key role in propagating Buddhism amongst the Turks and that they spread Buddhism from India into China proper.

Do you know what relationship they had with the tribes of Israel?

Didn't think so.

So much for your "borrowed" ideas......

These ideas were well known from oral tradition going very far back. Many people created "new" religions that emerged almost in a consecutive timeline.

[Nepenthe]

What do you think Jesus' purpose was? To gather "the flock". The 12 disciples were each from one of the tribes of Israel.

After the Exodus some of the Israelites went their own way. Some of them were Seafarers as in Dan's case. The Vikings were also seafarers.

After the Assyrian Captivity, Israel was "scattered" abroad. In the book of Kings, you can find out which route they took and this also lines up with history we have today. Many of them took off over the Caucasus mountains some going East and Some going West. After the Babylonian captivity Judah (which also had some from the Northern Kingdom mixed in with them) was carried away captive. A few from Judah and Israel returned later to Israel. This is when Ezra and Nehemiah sat down and compiled all of the writings that form our Old Testament.

Jesus came to gather his flock. Do you know where he might have been between the age of 12 and 30? The so called "missing" years? Well...I could go into this further about the "oral" traditions of many cultures. But I think I will just stop here.

[JACkory]

My arrogance.
What a joke.

Do as you will.

[poseidon]

Interesting reading. Are you still involved these days with the band 'King Tongue' Jac? Was wondering that the other day. Thinking about that trip Mary and Dana took to see one of your shows. Then the board war on RS.COM over that trip and your extra marital relationship with Mary...my bad Jac. Tsk, Tsk. I'm sure your Lord and Saviour will be questioning you very closely on that matter come your day in His presence. It was Mary and She Rocks right?

[kmc]

What you seem to be missing, Dee, are the following things:

Historical findings that coincide with events listed in the Bible do not, in fact, prove anything other than the fact that the Bible was written within historical context. For that matter, so was Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. But I won't go so far as to claim that because nazis existed, and Indiana Jones fought nazis, that therefore Indiana Jones is real. There is much in the Bible that is written within historical context (as is most historical fiction. Have you read the Davinci Code?). But to assert that a tribe mentioned in the Iliad may have Judaistic roots lends absolutely no degree of credibility to the Bible or the assertion that Jesus's teachings are somehow original because, uh, there were Jews everywhere, teaching people their ideas.

Nor does it matter of the teachings were part of oral tradition that predates Jesus, and it certainly serves as no defense of his teachings. Really, what are you saying? That because Jesus's teachings were firmly rooted in Judaic oral tradition, that in fact he was original? Because otherwise you are just proving my point. I mean, what are you saying, really? Are you claiming that Confucious and the Buddha just learned everything they had to say from the Hebrews, and that because Jesus was a Hebrew, he was the originator of said ideas?

You've gotta help me out, here. I admit to being a little slow on the uptake here as far as religious truths are concerned, but so far I am seeing no connection between what you have posted and any rebuttal of my ideas.

[JACkory]

poseidon said:

Interesting reading. Are you still involved these days with the band 'King Tongue' Jac? Was wondering that the other day. Thinking about that trip Mary and Dana took to see one of your shows. Then the board war on RS.COM over that trip and your extra marital relationship with Mary...my bad Jac. Tsk, Tsk. I'm sure your Lord and Saviour will be questioning you very closely on that matter come your day in His presence. It was Mary and She Rocks right?

No, you moron. It was Mary and Topsy.
And there was no "extra-marital relationship".
Your memory is faulty and you are supremely unqualified to bring it up, to discuss it, to judge me in regards to it and to even care one way or the other about it.

And though I don't feel as if your post should even be dignified with a response, it's purpose so obviously being to rile me up, I did want to call you a moron for having the nerve to post it (and...uhh...well, because you have proven yourself to be a moron so many times in the past and you don't seem to have progressed at all since the last time I called you a moron), so there you go. You got a little bit of a response.
Now go listen to your Britney Spears album and make love to a watermelon, you jackass.

[JACkory]

ritalinpants said:

i could have tremendous discussions with you about theological talking points. You would not see its like on these boards. But your arrogance has voided any such possibility. I never once was not open to discussions of this sort with you. But when you hit me over the head with utter idiocy, and expect me to "be understanding", i have no compassion.

That's okay. I'd just as soon not have a "tremendous theological discussion" with anyone who only respects my intelligence on "some days".
I neither want nor need your compassion.

[Nepenthe]

KMC, the difference is that I believe the Bible is the complete inspired word of God. You do not.

As a Christian I believe Jesus was the son of God, God incarnate, God in the Flesh, he was also had the lineage of Mary which was the tribe of Judah and Levi. So yes he would be the "originator". If the traditions of the Egyptians, Buddhists, Greeks with their philosphy ect.. coincide and sort of mirror one another do you not see the point here? All of the tribes had contact with these religions/philosophies, if not the creators of them. It is mentioned time and time again how Israel adopted other religions. And what about the tribes that were related to Abraham that weren't part of the 12 tribes? The Moabites, descendants of Moab who was a son of Lot. Lot was Abraham's Nephew. What about Noah's sons and their families?

I could point you to the book of Genesis to read about where these sons of Noah went and where they settled land. But I don't think it would do any good because you obviously do not feel the Bible to be 1. A valid historical document or 2. The inspired word from God.

[Nepenthe]

And please don't bring up the Da Vinci Code. It is a far cry from the historical content written in the Bible. Dan Brown is the poorest scholar I have ever seen, that book is indeed a complete work of fiction and utter garbage.

The historical information in the Bible is used in Universities and archaeology, and has more than proved itself as a historical document.