Does Led Zeppelin suck?

[skvorisdeadsorta]

And speaking of White Stripes, I heard their new single on the radio last night! Wow. It is super good. I can not wait for the new record. They are also playing ACL fest (along with Bjork) so it looks like I will be going to that this year.

[KooL]

Zep stole from blues artists just about as much as Springsteen stole from Dylan.

[Kensterberg]

sb said:

Zep stole from blues artists just about as much as Springsteen stole from Dylan.

Bruce really never stole anything from His Bobness. He picked up the excessive wordiness of Dylan's mid-sixties pinnacle, but in theme, song structure, band instrumentation, etc., Aside from "Blinded by the Light," Bruce never really revelled in wordplay for its own sake, which Dylan has made into an art. Bruce's narratives are also much more linear, and far less Biblical, than Bob's.

Bruce owes more to American r&b bands and Van Morrison than he does to Dylan. The "new Dylan" tag was really misleading (and that expectation and production idea seriously undercut some fine tunes on his first record). Bruce was always much more of a rocker than Dylan. Sure he was influenced by Bob, but really who wasn't?

[Dr. Drum]

kenholzman said:

The world would be a much better place without Led Zep. No hair bands, for one thing. Ever. Motley Crue, Warrant, Quiet Riot, all those assholes were Led Zeppelin wannabees ... and they all suck, too.

I dunno, Ken. I never owned any records by those hair metal guys either, but all that cheese is part of the story.

So is Fred Zep for that matter.

[Kensterberg]

docdrum said:

kenholzman said:

The world would be a much better place without Led Zep. No hair bands, for one thing. Ever. Motley Crue, Warrant, Quiet Riot, all those assholes were Led Zeppelin wannabees ... and they all suck, too.

I dunno, Ken. I never owned any records by those hair metal guys either, but all that cheese is part of the story.

So is Fred Zep for that matter.

I hear ya, Drum, but IMO the story would've been better if we could've just edited out the bits I mentioned above. Of course, you'd lose Rush too, but I'm sure we can all agree that it would still serve the greater good.

[Ryosuke]

Holzman - Fair enough. I had kind of assumed that it was the typical punk backlash, which I find to be boring and predictable. As for Led Zep's alleged plagiarism, you could pretty much say the same thing about the early British punk bands and the Who or the Kinks.

Like I said, I don't really care much for Led Zep myself, but I just can't fathom how anyone could hate them so - but I guess some people look at my hating of the Arctic Monkeys/Franz Ferdinand/whatever the same way (though it does seem kind of silly to compare Led Zep to those retarded retreads).

[Kensterberg]

I disagree regarding the extent of copying by the early Who and Kinks from blues performers vs. Led Zep. Neither of those bands ever lifted whole songs and tried to pass them off as their own compositions. Similarly, both Dave Davies and (esp.) Pete Townshend were much more original in putting their own spin on blues riffs than was Page. Even on their earliest singles, their styles were already distinctive and something apart from simply playing blues bits with their amps cranked way up. Page, on the other hand, was just a wanker whose biggest innovation was getting a louder stack of amps, and encouraging Plant to sing really high.

Similarly, if there was a style that the earliest punks were aping, I'd sure like to know what it was. I don't know of any proper antecedents for "God Save the Queen," or even "Now I Wanna Go Sniff Some Glue" and "White Riot." Early punk rock borrowed liberally from lots of elements of rock and roll history, but it didn't sound exactly like any of them. Billy Zoom may have played rockabilly riffs in X, but their overall sound was anything but rockabilly cranked up to 13. On the first two Led Zep LPs, Page just mimicked his blues idols, albeit at a higher volume level, and the rest of the band followed suit (in Plant's case, he took the vocals up an octave or two, which was a really bad idea).

Finally, in regards to this being the "typical punk" rejection of Led Zep as dinosaurs ... well, what can I say? I'd rejected Led Zep before I discovered punk, for whatever that's worth, and that reaction was contemporary with the punk movement, but I certainly wasn't following along with any crowd. Basically, I think Led Zep suck b/c they're a bunch of annoying, pretentious, plagiuristic wankers. And even if they never copied a riff/melody/whole song in their entire career, the other criticisms still stick.

[Kensterberg]

BTW, I'd much rather listen to Franz Ferdinand or Arctic Monkeys than anything by Zeppelin. At least those bands can write songs that don't meander on for hours, or invoke Middle Earth or other such shit. (Nothing against the Lord of the Rings books or movies, but they do not belong in rock and roll. Ever). All that pseud-mystical bullshit really turns me off.

[Ryosuke]

kenholzman said:

I disagree regarding the extent of copying by the early Who and Kinks from blues performers vs. Led Zep. Neither of those bands ever lifted whole songs and tried to pass them off as their own compositions. Similarly, both Dave Davies and (esp.) Pete Townshend were much more original in putting their own spin on blues riffs than was Page.

No no, I wasn't saying that the Who and the Kinks lifted from blues performers (although they did, just not to the extend that Led Zep did), but that the early British punk bands lifted from them.

[Ryosuke]

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you or anything. Our musical tastes cleary don't mesh. That's fine. To each his own.

[Kensterberg]

OK, gotcha ... but the thing is that none of the early punk bands literally stole riffs from the Who or the Kinks. From each other, sure (the Pistols nicked the riff for "Holidays in the Sun" from the Jam's "In the City"), and Paul Weller later "borrowed" one bass line from Taxman for "Start" and another from "You Can't Hurry Love" for "Town Called Malice." But talking about the original punk movement c. '75-'78 or so, there was nowhere near the same degree of outright lifting of material. It's one thing to borrow a guitar sound, an attitude, or even a few riffs. It's quite another to make a couple of changes in someone else's song and try to pass it off as your own (which I know that Zep did on at least one instance).

[Dr. Drum]

kenholzman said:

I hear ya, Drum, but IMO the story would've been better if we could've just edited out the bits I mentioned above. Of course, you'd lose Rush too, but I'm sure we can all agree that it would still serve the greater good.

I'm not incapable of of enjoying some of that tripe (in a kitschy sort of way, sure, but enjoying nonetheless) so I'm not so sure on your first count, Ken. On the second, yeah, Rush's debut album is as Zep-derivative a record as has ever been committed to tape. But I present as Exhibit 'A' their Feedback EP of covers of seminal influences – The Who, Buffalo Springfield, Love, Cream, Blue Cheer, a nod to Hendrix.... And yeah, Page and The Yardbirds. But the bottom line is, Zep or no Zep, we'd still have had the greatest power trio ever and pretty much as they are, I believe.

[KooL]

Led Zeppelin are pretentious, plagiuristic wankers? Zep 'stole' and Weller 'borrowed'?

OK, Melaun, while you're at it, start a "do the Smiths suck" thread. Give Holzman another punching bag why don'tcha?

[strat-0]

Well, whether or not Zep was trying to claim original authorship to some of those blues standards might be subject for debate, but anyone who did believe that would have been living in a vacuum. (Or a vacuum tube, like maybe a big 6L6 with that beautiful blue flame... but I digress.) Like the "Lemon Song," for example. It's obviously a rehash, but it was a fresh take and a different arrangement, for sure. I mean, "...down on the killing floor"? Clapton et al have done a much better job of giving credit where due, for sure.

But I don't think you're giving Jimmy fair credit as an instrumentalist, Ken. He was pretty damn good. He was one of the first rock technicians. He and a few others brought 'speed' to the game (Alvin Lee, Roy Buchanan, others). Yet, his solos were always well founded in the theme of the tune and were not 'drills.' Sure, he had a propensity to be sloppy at times, but he said a lot.

I'll always have a place in my heart for Zep, but they did suck at times.

[KooL]

The bottom line is everyone steals. Some more than others. At the end of the day though, Zep were the best thieves in rock [at the time], and the stuff they created on their own wasn't too shabby either.