|
|
Post by Ampage on May 17, 2004 16:57:53 GMT -5
Yea, supposedly some believe all the attention paid to the Super Bowl incident was to detract from all this Iraq crap. Now thats laughable. But I definitely believe certain things are scrutinized or picked over or overexposed to take the heat off of others, but not Janets tittie.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisfan on May 17, 2004 17:00:03 GMT -5
Yea, supposedly some believe all the attention paid to the Super Bowl incident was to detract from all this Iraq crap. Now thats laughable. But I definitely believe certain things are scrutinized or picked over or overexposed to take the heat off of others, but not Janets tittie. I guess I just don't understand how the same people who talk incessantly about how stupid George W Bush is can then turn around and accuse him of cooking up all these conspriacies. How can he control the media so much, and be a dumbass at the same time? I mean come on ... I didn't like Bill Clinton, and I disagreed with him on an awful lot, but you didnt find me being convinced that he had Vince Foster and Ron Brown killed. |
|
|
|
Post by shin on May 17, 2004 17:09:17 GMT -5
Interesting. Cuz that's exactly what I was doing: throwing out something to see how others here respond. So I'm not really sure how I drew your ire, given that I'm following the same set of posting guidelines that you do.
FWIW, while the DNC is most certainly trying to milk this prison scandal to highlight an ongoing theme of Bush's "failure of leadership" in a truly partisan political fashion, some of the harshest responses to the photographs and videos have come from Republican senators. I mention this largely because the more I heard from them, the more I knew this was seriously important politically in a way that had a true behind the scenes element. Hagel, Warner, L. Graham, McCain...partisan and not-so-partisan Republicans alike seemed pretty miffed. It's important to note that the whole scenario is not just partisan politics. It's been rather unnerving. I'm used to the whole closing-ranks deal when things go bad politically...this was a whole different can of worms. I think that's why this has gotten the press it has in some respects. It's quite unusually in this modern political climate to see what we've been seeing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ampage on May 17, 2004 17:16:43 GMT -5
I guess I just don't understand how the same people who talk incessantly about how stupid George W Bush is can then turn around and accuse him of cooking up all these conspriacies. How can he control the media so much, and be a dumbass at the same time? I mean come on ... I didn't like Bill Clinton, and I disagreed with him on an awful lot, but you didnt find me being convinced that he had Vince Foster and Ron Brown killed. WHOA! I never said Bush was stupid, never. I am all up in the Bush mix lately and definitely voting for him. And I don't think Georgie is calling Jane Pratt asking her to do a cover of Janets abs for next moths Sassy in order to distract from the war, but there are hundereds of people working for that machine, and I will never believe, with all the strings being pulled and backs being scratched that something like that doesn't take place to an extent. And that would be under ANYONES time in office. |
|
|
|
Post by luke on May 17, 2004 18:52:36 GMT -5
Haha, amp, did you see that latest Chris Rock stand-up? He went on about that whole Janet Jackson/George Bush thing, accusing GWB of starting all sorts of scandals to stop people from noticing scandals under his administration. Said stuff like, "George Bush put that little boy in Michael Jackson's bed! That was George Bush fucking Paris Hilton in that video!"
|
|
|
|
Post by riley on May 17, 2004 19:49:21 GMT -5
LMAO!
Chris Rock kills me man.
|
|
|
|
Post by Galactus on May 17, 2004 21:57:30 GMT -5
Let me try to explain myself abit better. I'm sorry for the confusion the first question caused, it was not me asking it. I was repeating a question that I've heard alot. I know that you (chrisfan) do not represent the right nor do you subscribe to all it's beliefs so this not directed at you but ....The right seems to want to make the nick berg beheading the center of any current outrage, where as the left would like nothing more then to make it the prisoner troture.
Now not once did I accuse George Bush of cooking up anything...his name is nowhere in that post, you hate it when people put words in your mouth please don't do it to me.
If you honestly don't see the split, then I'm probably just wasting my time. I feel like you understand completely though and just don't want to admit it.For everyone the left playing politics with the torture stuff...there is someone on the right trying to squeeze every ounce out of this beheading. There is a spin machine on both sides, "conspiracies" might be abit strong...but yeah the right wants to use the beheading to gain more support for Iraq and The left wants to use the torture as a spanner in the works. There seems to be some question as to which is worse...depending on which side of the isle you sit on one is terrible and something has to be done, the other is terrible too but not so terrible as to take drastic action...
This probably isn't any clearer, especially if you wholely subscribe to the spin of either side....
|
|
|
|
Post by strat-0 on May 17, 2004 23:17:48 GMT -5
Man, I'm gonna have to go back and read all these posts! I've been so busy trying to figure out how to work this shit and organize it that I haven't even had a chance to analize and comment on current events! Which was one of the last subs I gave up on, BTW. I was disappointed at how CE went down the toilet, after so long as a staple...
|
|
|
|
Post by limitdeditionlayla on May 18, 2004 3:06:55 GMT -5
I think DED brought up a very valid point. Alot of the opinion OUTSIDE the US is along the lines of "are we surprised at terrorists murdering a US citizen? No. We're disgusted but not surprised" however the pictures of the treatment of Abu Ghraib prisoners is causing one fuckload of outrage. Probably more than it should be, considering that these kinds of behaviour seem to be common throughout jails (military or not), but nonetheless.
The split that DED is talking about it definately there. It may be due to the line of argument that some of the prisoners were Saddam's former henchmen, but that should not matter. Or the Lynddie England "we were told to do it" excuse, that doesn't wash with a lot of people.
But yeah, there is this widespread feeling that we've come to expect terrorist actions such as the Berg execution, but seeing 'everyday' people, particularly those who are in a position of power such as the military, subjecting POWs to sexual humiliation and physical threat is worse.
These are people like you & I, and thats where the outrage stems from, for me. I'd like to think if i were in that situation I would not be capable of doing anything like that to another human, but I dunno.
Anyway, I liked your post DED.
|
|
|
|
Post by luke on May 18, 2004 3:23:15 GMT -5
Layla, you (prolly unwittingly) brought up a good point. How we Americans act at such outrage at our men and women "torturing" foreigners, but at how we joke about prison rape, and the torture that those people go through. What happens in our domestic prisons is far, far worse than what is happening to those victims of frat-pranks in Abu Gharib, but yet, while a nation acts horrified at acts overseas, we laugh at the torturous fates of thousands of our own people.
|
|
|
|
Post by limitdeditionlayla on May 18, 2004 3:40:14 GMT -5
yeah, thats true, Luke. but you can't just limit that attitude to Americans, b/c everyone does it & the treatment of prisoners is something that is generally ignored the world over. I guess its not as important to the general population if its not war-related. But it is sad, especially when you consider that many men (and women) being brutalised in jails are not even murderers or paedophiles (the kind of people that Joe & Jane Blow say "they'll get what they deserve in jail"). They're convicted on drugs/theft/even white collar crime
If anything, the Abu Ghraib/Nick Berg incidents have taught us two things:
1. The power of the media.
why is there not a greater collective outrage at the mass killings/rapes that took place in Bosnia or Rwanda? I know we're all disgusted by these things, but I don't they compare to the reaction of the planet to the stills we've seen in recent weeks, and b/c we SAW them. Look at the famous photo of the little Vietnamese girl whose clothes had been bruned away. The pic of Lynddie England with her thumb up as Iraqis stood masked & naked by her is the new version of that Vietnam photo. And the way humanity is going, there'll be more to come.
2. America as viewed by the rest of the world.
Would the reaction have been the same if it had been a man from Turkmenistan being executed? I highly doubt it. It seems that there is two schools of thought, the "thats what the US gets for abusing POWs" & the "this execution was worse BECAUSE it was an American".
I don't want to sit here saying "oh everyone hates the US" b/c thats not true & its not fair or right. But alot of the outrage towards the Abu Ghraib pics may come from the opinion the rest of us hold of America. And maybe Nick Berg is, for some people, the epitome of what is not liked about the US: he should've kept his nose outta there before he got what was coming.
note: last sentence was NOT my personal opinion (necessary legal disclaimer)
|
|
|
|
Post by Rit on May 18, 2004 8:41:24 GMT -5
good, at least someone's saying it. that's my perspective on it as well, layla, and i can't see how anyone can get off calling me partisan... i'm not american for one thing... hence i DON'T CONFIGURE IN THE DEM-REP scheme.
but then the label of "Liberal" is tossed around to non-americans who criticise the Bush admin.... umm, no! the Dems and Repubs do not fully align along those distinctions anyway. They're more interchangeable than that, just two coniving political parties. Stop tarring the rest of the world with your hopelessly corrupt designations.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisfan on May 18, 2004 9:11:21 GMT -5
Interesting. Cuz that's exactly what I was doing: throwing out something to see how others here respond. So I'm not really sure how I drew your ire, given that I'm following the same set of posting guidelines that you do. The difference is, I make the statements based on what I think. The statements you've made that I've expressed my ire over have started with statements like "Conservatives are saying ..." You're trying to force feed a viewpoint on those here you tend to disagree with. I state my views. You state (wrongly) others views seeking a response. FWIW, while the DNC is most certainly trying to milk this prison scandal to highlight an ongoing theme of Bush's "failure of leadership" in a truly partisan political fashion, some of the harshest responses to the photographs and videos have come from Republican senators. I mention this largely because the more I heard from them, the more I knew this was seriously important politically in a way that had a true behind the scenes element. Hagel, Warner, L. Graham, McCain...partisan and not-so-partisan Republicans alike seemed pretty miffed. It's important to note that the whole scenario is not just partisan politics. It's been rather unnerving. I'm used to the whole closing-ranks deal when things go bad politically...this was a whole different can of worms. I think that's why this has gotten the press it has in some respects. It's quite unusually in this modern political climate to see what we've been seeing. This looks like it's going in circles to me. Yesterday you were saying conservatives weren't outraged by the prison behavior. Now, you're saying they've caught your attention by speaking out so stronly against it. Which is it? |
|
|
|
Post by chrisfan on May 18, 2004 9:12:42 GMT -5
WHOA! I never said Bush was stupid, never. I am all up in the Bush mix lately and definitely voting for him. And I don't think Georgie is calling Jane Pratt asking her to do a cover of Janets abs for next moths Sassy in order to distract from the war, but there are hundereds of people working for that machine, and I will never believe, with all the strings being pulled and backs being scratched that something like that doesn't take place to an extent. And that would be under ANYONES time in office. My misuse of a pronoun. I didn't mean YOU were the one saying Bush was stupid, then accusing him of conspring over everything bad in this world. |
|
|
|
Post by chrisfan on May 18, 2004 9:19:48 GMT -5
Now not once did I accuse George Bush of cooking up anything...his name is nowhere in that post, you hate it when people put words in your mouth please don't do it to me. If you honestly don't see the split, then I'm probably just wasting my time. I feel like you understand completely though and just don't want to admit it. Am I the only one who sees the irony in the second statement here directly following the first? You tell me not to put words in my mouth ... and then tell me what thoughts are going through my head. Okay? I'm not surprised really. You've always amazed me with your ability to think my thoughts before I do. But anyway. To respond to the "don't put words in my mouth" you're right that nowhere in your post do you mention George W Bush. However, nowhere in my post responding to you do I mention George W Bush. So how am I putting words in your mouth? Is that another of those thoughts you had for me? |
|
