CE Volume 3

[Galactus]

1. I'm sick of hearing about war records.
2. I'm sick of Republicans whining about how negative the Democrats are with the implication the they aren't.
3. I'm sick that thier isn't a viable third party.
4. I'm sick of people saying it'd be better if the other side went away...if you lose the balance everything goes to hell.
5. I'm sick of being lied to.
6. I'm sick of seeing American flag stickers on cars.
7. I'm sick of prople who think killing other people is fun and/or ok.
8a. I'm sick of people who don't give a shit. You should know what it means when you go put your little "x" beside a canidate's name.
8b. I'm sick of people who don't give a shit and won't vote because they're too fucking lazy.
9. I'm sick of people who don't vote pretending like they care.
10. I'm sick of George W. Bush.

[pissin2]

amen brutha. preach it!

[Galactus]

www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/23/bush.kerry/index.html

"You first."
"No, You first"
"Nuh Uh, you"
...

[shin]

stratman19 said:

One thing that continues to bother me, is why John Kerry would rather talk about a 30 year old war, rather than his 20+ years in the United States Senate. One would think the latter as being far more relevant. I have a pretty good idea why Kerry doesn't want to talk about his 20+ year record, choosing instead to ofuscate said record, and opting instead to talk about a 30 year old war.

See if this makes sense. If his entire Senate career and voting record were to become widely known by the general public, it would be discovered that he is far to liberal to be elected by mainstream America. Sound reasonable?

If he's "far too liberal", what then happens to the flip flop title? Eh? Can't have them both at the same time, can you? The flip flop angle works best for Bush, given how he's been campaigning as a steady and resolute leader. You should be thankful that Kerry isn't focusing on his senate record that would supposedly show him to be "far too liberal"




Chrisfan: thank you for illustrating my point so well I couldn't have asked you to have done better. Here we are talking about the legality of the 527s or their involvement with candidates of EITHER side, in some "objective" charade, instead of talking about how the SBVfT are, that's right, lying. Or at the very least flip-flopping with their statements (crowd faints out of shock at the thought of flip flopping). It's the classic smokescreen and you have no problem fanning the smoke. As of now, it would be considered "biased" to print the words "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" without then printing the words "MoveOn.org" a few sentences later for "balance".

www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_08/004557.php

You want to talk about the legality of 527s? You're more than welcome to do so. But if you want to misconstrue my statements as "Bush is evil, so anything that supports him is bad and wrong, and anything that is against him is good and innocent", you're not going to succeed. This is about truth and these SB vets are bankrupt in that category. Unless Bush is directly involved with the SBVfT () I don't see how Bush has anything to do with this. That was my intention of this conversation in the first place, not to delve into the world of 527s. And IF the SB stuff was true, believe you me, you couldn't find a more devastating critique of Kerry. When I saw the ad for the first time, I was like "Jesus that was good, too bad none of it's true." Frankly I might even sit out the election if any of it were true, or write-in Clark. Too bad absolutely none of it is. Wait, did I say too bad? I meant "it's fabulous".

So you're right ... the swift boat dudes credibility has been called out. So tell me, why aren't you applying those same standards to Kerry, to admit that he's also been discredited?

Because being in Cambodia at a particular point in time is a completely irrelevant point in anything. If this is more than just faulty recollection, if he's lying about this...what is his gain?

"I was in Cambodia on a secret mission."

"Wow! I'm going to vote for him now!"

Is that a likely scenario? Hardly. But the situations that really count are the ones in which he earned his Silver Star and to a lesser degree his Purple Hearts. Those are the ones I care to defend, and I only care to defend them because the extent to which these Swift Boat people are willing to lie is so immoral that it offends the very fabric of my being.

So hear, read this:

fray.slate.msn.com/id/2105529/

I've read that the Tet holiday might have been the motivation for the controversy about the shots being fired, instead of Christmas. They fall around the same period. I've also read that if Kerry had mistaken Tet for Christmas, then everything fits chronologically.


You know it's funny that you're out there saying that this Cambodia thing is on par with Bush's "AWOL". They are not comparable, "objectivity" won't change that. If Kerry's wrong about where he was and when, he was at the very least close to being right. No matter what, he was doing his duty in Vietnam. No matter how piss poor his memory is, he's never been so far to the truth as to be detached from reality. But Bush? His records are not completely released and we don't know where he was or what he was doing for MONTHS. Hell you know the scenario, no need to repeat it all.



Does any of this matter in and of itself? No. Honestly, I think Bush was off on a coke bender and that's why this is being guarded and protected by his campaign like Fort Knox. But you're right, people can grow up and change. But once again, to compare the two situations, at the very worst Kerry has a terrible memory. He's been telling the same Cambodia story for too long for this to be an outright lie. But at the very worst Bush *was* a dishonorable cokehead. And no, neither of these things should necessarily matter, except, as you know, the medals/AWOL stuff has taken such a huge role in this directly because not everyone is willing to dismiss what these candidates did 30 years ago as youthful misbehavior. To a lot of people the sort of thing these two were doing there says a lot about their character to them. Like you said: "If he were still the way he was then, he would not have my support, and I venture to guess I"m not the only one." Except in the case of some other people, it doesn't matter if he's still like that now or not.

To me, the question is: if Kerry was wrong about the details of being in Cambodia, what does that mean? To what extent does it matter? I'm trying to fit this into a "Kerry is a liar and exaggerator" narrative a la Gore, but really it just doesn't matter much in the long run. It wasn't even true then with Gore, it's not gonna fly now with Kerry either.

So just what about that should make me or anyone else believe that Kerry doesn't alienate people to the degree that they won't work with him?

I'm at a bit of a lose as to why the BA's strongarming and disrespect of the traditional international alliances that form the foundation of our foreign policy backbone is on par with Vietnam vets being upset at Kerry for speaking out about atrocities committed by American troops that they just simple didn't want to believe was true.

But it's more telling to me that virtually every person who actually served on Kerry's swift boats stands behind him now, praising his character. In other words, the people who actually work WITH him rally behind him as a leader. Only those who are vindictive, distant and detached are lying and smearing and calling him all sorts of nasty things. And if that doesn't make you believe that Kerry won't alienate people to the degree that they won't work with him, I don't know what to tell you.

[Proud]

"6. I'm sick of seeing American flag stickers on cars."

that's the only part of the 10 i really disagree with. i personally like it, i fully support the idea of patriotism. BUT people must realize that questioning your government and wanting to improve your country is one of the most patriotic things you can do.

[Galactus]

I'm a fan of patriotism in general, unless it's blind patriotism...the kind that ignores everyone else on the planet and assumes we're the only ones who deserve to live...the kind of patriots who believe that eveyone else is building a raft and ploting an escape plan to get here... they kind of piss me off.

[melon1]

I think it is imperative for us all to settle once and for all who's wrong and who's right, whether it be about conservatives or liberals, right-wingers or left-wingers, Democrats or Republicans, Catholics or Baptists.


We're all wrong. Jesus is right.

[riley]

DED said:

I'm a fan of patriotism in general, unless it's blind patriotism...the kind that ignores everyone else on the planet and assumes we're the only ones who deserve to live...the kind of patriots who believe that eveyone else is building a raft and ploting an escape plan to get here... they kind of piss me off.

I started building a raft, but I realized there's no way I'll have it built before the harbour freezes, so I guess I'm kinda fucked. Will you guys be alright down there without me?

I can try to build a small aircraft (complete with a US flag decal), but I'm not much of a pilot, and I'm pretty sure your President has a standing order in place to shoot down all UFC's (Unidentified Flying Canadians).

[Proud]

"I'm a fan of patriotism in general, unless it's blind patriotism...the kind that ignores everyone else on the planet and assumes we're the only ones who deserve to live...the kind of patriots who believe that eveyone else is building a raft and ploting an escape plan to get here... they kind of piss me off."

i agree completely. the important thing is to be both a patriot AND a humanitarian. and remembering that being a patriot doesn't necessarily mean "my country, right or wrong".

[chrisfan]

shin said:

Chrisfan: thank you for illustrating my point so well I couldn't have asked you to have done better. Here we are talking about the legality of the 527s or their involvement with candidates of EITHER side, in some "objective" charade, instead of talking about how the SBVfT are, that's right, lying. Or at the very least flip-flopping with their statements (crowd faints out of shock at the thought of flip flopping). It's the classic smokescreen and you have no problem fanning the smoke. As of now, it would be considered "biased" to print the words "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" without then printing the words "MoveOn.org" a few sentences later for "balance".

www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_08/004557.php

You want to talk about the legality of 527s?

Um, actually it was the Kerry campaign that brought that up as an issue in all of this debate. Now while I'm flattered to think that you think highly enough of my political instincts to believe that I may be working as an advisor to the Kerry campaign, and that bringing up the 527s legality was in fact my idea, sadly, I'm not a political advisor to anyone.

shin said:

Because being in Cambodia at a particular point in time is a completely irrelevant point in anything. If this is more than just faulty recollection, if he's lying about this...what is his gain?

"I was in Cambodia on a secret mission."

"Wow! I'm going to vote for him now!"

The Cambodia story matters, as does the rest of it, because John Kerry has used it for years to promote himself politically. The accuracy of the claims have been brought into question for good reason, and he's done nothing to back them up. Why are the swift boat dudes coming after him? For political gain. Why is John Kerry running on his Vietnam record? For political gain. Shin, they are either BOTH relevant, and the intergrity of the claims of BOTH sides needs to be called into question, or neither are. BOTH appear to be exaggerating/distorting and/or outright lying for political gain.

shin said:

You know it's funny that you're out there saying that this Cambodia thing is on par with Bush's "AWOL". They are not comparable, "objectivity" won't change that.

No, you're right, they're not comprable. One is a claim that was fabricated by a candidates detractors, in an attempt to to cut him down. The other was fabricated by a candidate himself in an attempt to advance his political agenda. So the only think comprable in both is that they are false.

Also important here Shin ... in your post, you went on to say that you believe Bush was on a coke bender, and that is why he "didn't show up". You make this claim despite the fact that the White House has presented documents that prove that Bush did in fact show up. Now, if we go back to the criteria that YOU set a few days ago, then it's up to Bush's critics to prove that he was AWOL ... that he did not show up. It's not up to Bush to prove it, even though he already has. So again Shin, I have to point out the glaring hypocirsy that you are looking at all of this with. When a man proves where he was, you claim it wasn't true. But when a man can't prove his claims, you say that it's up to his accusers to prove their point, not the man to defend his. Which one is it, because you're trying to have it both ways is getting really really old.

shin said:

But it's more telling to me that virtually every person who actually served on Kerry's swift boats stands behind him now, praising his character. In other words, the people who actually work WITH him rally behind him as a leader. Only those who are vindictive, distant and detached are lying and smearing and calling him all sorts of nasty things. And if that doesn't make you believe that Kerry won't alienate people to the degree that they won't work with him, I don't know what to tell you.

Shin, this is false. Not every person who actually served on Kerry's swift boat is standing behind him now. The majority sure. But the majority of swift boat captains who served with Kerry (as in their boats worked together, not as in on the same boat) who were at the same rank as Kerry stand against him. Being "loved" by those you lead is not always as important as being respected by them.

The bottom line is this Shin -- I agree with you that all of the stories from the swift boat dudes are not credible. I believe that they are exagerating, possibly lying about some things, in order to achieve what they want politically, which is for John Kerry to lose. But there is another side to this, which you seem blind to. That is that John Kerry has also been proven to be not credible. He's also exaggerating his record, and possibly lying about it. I just believe in applying the same standards to both sides. You don't. To each his own.

BTW, if anyone (you included Shin) cares, here's a link to what I think is a fantastic article from the Washington Post on Sunday that fairly works through one of the incidents in question, and shows holes in both sides story. Goes back to what I said about this in the beginning ... there are three sides to every story -- the swift boat dudes, Kerry's, and the truth.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html

[pissin2]

Jesus doesn't know his ass from a hole in his hand.

I'm sick of all the flags too. It's good to support your troops. They're over there fighting. Some of them know why, some don't. Some of them suck, others are awesome. So I support the awesome ones that are stuck over there. But most people that have a flag on their car, or a flag in their store window have no idea what the hell is going on in the world. They probably don't know what's going on in their city, or even on their street. They suck and they just put the flag up because of 9/11. These colors don't run! Yeah okay. And it actually has died down a little though. It was like okay 9/11 was a year ago, I guess I can take this flag off my car now. I definitely don't see it as much. Fucking douchebags need to get a clue.

[Proud]

"But most people that have a flag on their car, or a flag in their store window have no idea what the hell is going on in the world. They probably don't know what's going on in their city, or even on their street. They suck and they just put the flag up because of 9/11."

just like those "u.s. gas" stations. they're probably ran by illegal immigrants who can't spell mississippi.

'hey, i know! our gas isn't selling, so let's play with people's patriotism! yeah!'

[pissin2]

and don't forget those 7 11 fucks. they're the worst. you combine 7 11 with 9 11 and all you get is a red white and blue slushy that you try to take home to your fat wife and she doesn't even want the thing because there's a dead mouse in it AND she's on the rag. fucking bitch.

[Galactus]

Oh man, this topic has taken a turn for the worst...

[Galactus]

I'm really looking forward to the debates...I think they've both got their work cut out form them...