|
|
Post by Nepenthe on Aug 15, 2005 11:01:56 GMT -5
Now, regarding the actual content of the discussion - I'm the one who brought up the fact that natalee holloway was white (i never said she was rich, i have no idea if she's rich or not!) - and pretty and all-american-looking and blonde- i believe that was the whole phrase. But if you really thought I mentioned all that to show that she "deserved" her fate, then you misread me completely and made me out to be a pretty horrible human being. I was speculating as to why there has been such a media hurricane around this story, and why it has attracted so much attention and concern from so many people who AREN'T natalee's parents (who, obviously and of course, have every reason to be grief-stricken and 100% devoted to their daughter's case). And I think natalee's appearance has a lot to do with it. I'm not saying it's something conscious, like people see her picture and think "oh my goodness, it's so horrible that someone so WHITE and PRETTY got kidnapped, it's so wrong to kidnap WHITE and PRETTY girls" - I'm sure it's much more subconscious than this. The question remains - why soooooooo much attention for this case, as compared to the numerous other tragedies which befall young and innocent victims all the time? It's a fair question to ask, not because I want to attack natalee holloway or diminish the tragedy of her disappearance and probable death, but because it bears on media coverage in general, a perfectly fair topic to ponder in terms of race, class, beauty, etc etc. Incidentlly, I appreciated strat-o's "there but for the grace of god" post - and I agree. Getting into that car was probably pretty fucking stupid, but the vast majority of us have done pretty fucking stupid shit in our lives, with no consequences. Usually, when you do someting stupid, you don't end up dead - otherwise a lot fewer of us would still be posting here. I am not judging natalee holloway - I do think it's likely she got into that car for drugs or sex (I have no way of knowing for sure, I'm only speculating, based on what I know of 18 year olds on vacation in places like aruba) but even if so, i still wouldn't judge her for it. Doesn't mean I can't point out the naivete of those who are utterly shocked by the suggestion that miss holloway might have been something less than pure, or those who list her GPA and scholarships as evidence that she didn't get high or have sex. Of course - maybe she didn't - she's a stranger so who knows for sure? But the circumstances make it likely enough that it's silly to act horrified by the mere suggestion. M Did anyone ever say that they were shocked or horrified by the suggestion that Natalee Holloway was less than pure? So I guess stupid bitch and stupid whore is your definition of a little less than pure? I think the point here was not that anyone was shocked by the fact that Natalee may have been a little less than pure, it was more the fact that Luke called her a stupid bitch and stupid whore who's sole intent was to go out get high and fucked by 3 boys in a car....Also I think it has something to do with having a little respect for the dead victim. Gee I guess walks on the beach with a boy and possibly a sexual encounter, or possibly not, now days indicates a stupid whore who's sole purpose is an all out drug induced orgy. Gosh! I don't suppose that the Judge's son could have possibly spiked her drink with something? We had about 10 of these types of rape cases last semester right here on the campus. But according to Luke they were stupid whores who shouldn't have been at those college parties to begin with in order to get their drink spiked and then raped... Wow what a new concept eh? Get a 105 pound girl drunk or drugged up and take advantage of her!  Yes Luke I suppose her mom is going to go on national T.V. and say: "Yes my daughter was a stupid bitch and a whore and loved to take all sorts of drugs and have sex with boys all the time, it was her normal everyday life".  As for the 151, sorry Luke I don't think that all 18 year old girls are familar with 151 or the punch that it can pack. Maybe you are just assuming that because YOU being such the expert that you are were familar with it at that age. I should know I have an 18 year old that has NEVER had 151. |
|
|
|
Post by rockkid on Aug 15, 2005 11:04:46 GMT -5
Lordy lordy lordy I told ya luke a can ‘o worms.
Mary’s sure got it as do I.
Let’s put it into an easy explanation sampler (as if it will help)
Certainly lukes phrasing could use some finesse & had he said it in a group in person I’d be looking at him like he was a cross eyed psycho however, it doesn’t change the underling point.
Point…………. Every news driven country seems to have the same problem.
I’ll use this all too common example. Which makes news more, the murder of a street hooker or that of a soccer mom nailed by a hood in some mall parking lot.
If you look at the truth of it neither victim is more or less important.
If you look at the media version, well that changes doesn’t it.
So in reality folks if anything’s sickening, that is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nepenthe on Aug 15, 2005 11:06:04 GMT -5
And as for the news coverage? Well it might have something to do with who she was seen with before she dissapeared. DUH.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nepenthe on Aug 15, 2005 11:10:45 GMT -5
Lordy lordy lordy I told ya luke a can ‘o worms. Mary’s sure got it as do I. Let’s put it into an easy explanation sampler (as if it will help) Certainly lukes phrasing could use some finesse & had he said it in a group in person I’d be looking at him like he was a cross eyed psycho however, it doesn’t change the underling point. Point…………. Every news driven country seems to have the same problem. I’ll use this all too common example. Which makes news more, the murder of a street hooker or that of a soccer mom nailed by a hood in some mall parking lot. If you look at the truth of it neither victim is more or less important. If you look at the media version, well that changes doesn’t it. So in reality folks if anything’s sickening, that is. Sorry I was assuming by the name of the thread it was about the fact that Natalee was a stupid whore that Luke is tired of hearing about. Silly me. |
|
|
|
Post by rockkid on Aug 15, 2005 11:11:49 GMT -5
You are still missing it.
Can you honestly say that in your own town you’ve not seen an example of two different murder cases where one has received more attention because of “who the victim was”?
I’m not disagreeing with lukes choice of words being poor but I am agreeing with his underlying point.
Open your mind for F’s sake. It’s okay to be disgusted & still see the “big picture”.
In fact I’d say lukes guilty here of the same thing the media is.
Can you spell sensationalism.
|
|
|
|
Post by rockkid on Aug 15, 2005 11:17:58 GMT -5
I’m sorry too. I’d much rather be able to have a civil discussion with you than have it slide off into a one sided arrogance party. Guess my plans are fucked eh. Silly me. |
|
|
|
Post by Nepenthe on Aug 15, 2005 11:22:25 GMT -5
Funny, the guys always get off in the end don't they? (no pun intended). Did it ever occur to anyone that it might be the fact that the suspects involved were actually a high ranking official and his son? And not 'just' because Natalee was white and pretty?
|
|
|
|
Post by luke on Aug 15, 2005 11:29:42 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I definitely sensationalize with posts like that first one I had.
Tuatha, looks like your temperature has been a'risin' on this board since your first couple posts...let me clarify a couple of things from your last post, though, at least insofar as how I look at this stuff...
When it comes to her drink being spiked, that was my first thought on the whole thing. Then I saw her mother and friends on TV saying that her drink wasn't spiked. So yeah, they could be just as full of it as they are about most everything else, who knows.
As for kids her age knowing what 151 is, well, the kind of 18 year-olds who go to Aruba for senior trip invariably know their liquor. I'm not basing that one on myself so much as everyone else I knew, most of whom were kids a lot like Natalee Holloway.
As for her mother, well, I don't expect her to be on TV at all. Her daughter was just murdered, yeah. She's out of it. Have a couple interviews with her, but don't treat the woman as a credible source for anything. She's just as out of it as that Sheehan lady or whatever.
And you keep saying "Judge's son" like the kid was completely respectable. What I saw on television was, yes, a bunch of sleazy looking guys in gold chains. You shouldn't be having walks on the beach with those guys, no.
I wouldn't judge Natalee Holloway if she had a huge orgy with all those guys and did tons of drugs with them. Hell, I might even have beat off to it on the internet once upon a time. But that doesn't change the fact that she did something stupid, something so obviously stupid. I realize my post inspired outrage with intentionally clumsy use of language, but you gotta look at the narrow picture here.
I think you really got the gist of my post at first, but have since gotten spun into the mess of things around here and gotten a bit defensive. But please don't take this post as a personal attack, because it most certainly is not.
|
|
JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
|
Post by JACkory on Aug 15, 2005 11:30:48 GMT -5
Wow, but you agree with calling Natalee a stupid bitch and a stupid whore? Thats interesting.... I believe I already provided a list of the points in luke's post that I agreed with. It was, after all, the points that were being discussed at that particular time, and not luke's choice of words. But seeing as how I it has now morphed into "attack and defend" mode, I suppose I should clarify and add that the words "stupid bitch" and "stupid whore" are most definately not labels that I would personally use to describe Natalee Hollaway or anyone else for that matter, so no, if I've somehow failed to see that this is about the names luke chose to use and NOT the points he was making, then by all means I "disagree that she was a 'stupid whore' or a 'stupid bitch'"... And there is no conflict of interest in calling a proclaiming Christian to account for hateful name-calling while remaining silent about a non-Christians use of similar name-calling. This should be so obvious that I don't even feel the need to expound upon it. As for the bit about " Dude, what are you the Pope? Or better yet are you God now?"... A VERY BASIC and GENERAL understanding of what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour for Christians is not in the realm of only the Pope and God, but anyone with even a surface understanding of the Bible's teachings should be able to affirm that "love your neighbor as you love yourself" and "you're an idiot punk" somehow just don't sound right together, do they? So I have to be the Pope or God to point that out? I don't think so. |
|
|
|
Post by rockkid on Aug 15, 2005 11:31:03 GMT -5
No they don’t always “get off” oh jaded one but in this case I’d agree you’re on the right track.
I think especially in a place (read country) where rules could be easily broken his fathers clout will & probably has already come into play.
Is that fair, honest, right. Undeniably NO!
Has there been a cover up? I’d probably bet on it.
Is the media still guilty of doing what they do? You bet.
|
|
|
|
Post by luke on Aug 15, 2005 11:32:53 GMT -5
And this was on television weeks (at least days) before they even had any real suspects, wasn't it? This is certainly a newsworthy item in Aruba and Alabama, but it just doesn't hold its own anywhere else. As I said from the beginning, this is no different than the runaway bride or any of these other lame stories they've been giving us.
|
|
|
|
Post by rockkid on Aug 15, 2005 11:36:55 GMT -5
As for the “Runaway Bride” remember the good old days when human interest stories garnered a one mention blurb.
Oh how I long.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nepenthe on Aug 15, 2005 11:40:14 GMT -5
Luke, I still have to disagree with you on the point that she was 'familar' with 151. I mean I wasn't familar with 151 till I was in my 20's and I drank liquor as a teenager. Nor was I familar with the punch it could give. After drinking a few other drinks before hand, and then 3 shots of 151, if I wasn't with someone that night I would have probably gone along with just about anything or anyone. As a matter of fact I fell in the parking lot in a pile of grease and passed out on the way to the car and they had to pick me up. Then when I got home I puked my guts out. So I am just going on my own experience with 151, you are going by your experience. I guess its just a matter of opinion.
Well as for who you saw on the T.V. I don't know......I know several people have been arrested. But the main suspect now is the Rich White high ranking official's son, he is the only one I know of that is being held and has changed his story I don't know how many times...
|
|
JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
|
Post by JACkory on Aug 15, 2005 11:45:59 GMT -5
Holloway's mother herself has affirmed that the reason she is still in Aruba is so that the news story will stay national. She believes that the continual exposure, keeping it in the national public eye, is key to getting answers and making progress.
And maybe she's right about that, but the fact remains that her story is no more or less important than any of the other countless victims of rape and homicide that have taken place in the months since her daughters disappearance, a significant portion of which never even get a mention on the same news networks that have given excessive airtime to this particular cold case.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisfan on Aug 15, 2005 11:46:14 GMT -5
Funny, the guys always get off in the end don't they? (no pun intended). Did it ever occur to anyone that it might be the fact that the suspects involved were actually a high ranking official and his son? And not 'just' because Natalee was white and pretty? The men don't always get off. Scott Peterson? And it was a big high profile story before a diplomat's son and the diplomat himself were identified as suspects. As Mary said, it was pretty blonde girl, whose perfect vacation was ruined when she disappeared. For a while, it looked like she may have just taken off and was not in fact killed. The press was entering into their "we have nothing to talk about time" ... and I will never not believe that the chance to spend the Summer in Aruba was not appealing enough to garner some extra coverage. |
|
