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Post by Proud on Nov 20, 2007 11:52:16 GMT -5
well, i think on some level a lot of people who hate gay people are afraid--not necessarily self-loathers by any means, but ignorant of them as people. ive seen a lot of that here, where people are actually fearful of spending any time with a gay person, or having one as a roommate in a dorm because OMG something might happen or who do they hang out with or who they will bring home. i think it's an adequate description. ... Ignorance and fear aren't the same thing. Neither are hatred and fear. You're also giving examples of discomfort. Discomfort and fear aren't the same thing, either. |
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Post by phil on Nov 20, 2007 11:56:12 GMT -5
Could it be that ignorance breeds fear which leads to hatred ... ?
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Post by upinkzeppelin2 on Nov 20, 2007 19:10:19 GMT -5
Could it be that you're searching earnestly for a way to fit hatred into the equation....?
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Post by Dwazee on Nov 20, 2007 20:34:00 GMT -5
the kids that have complained about being with homosexual roommates were exactly how i described--fearful of what might happen because all gay people are sex crazed deviants that will hit on them and try to convert them--their views. they also hate them because they believe they are an abomination and believe they are going to hell. ALL things that encompass the fear, ignorance, and hate that goes together. it is NOT discomfort for these kids. it is genuine fear and hate--these are the ones that have their parents call the president's office and call ME and tell me that well, that's just how they are, they hate gays. as if it's that they hate the color pink or brussel sprouts.
for you to say that you think its something that someone choose and that you disapprove, that isnt a mild dislike--or else homosexual marriage would have already been voted into law. period. it's not a mild dislike--it's obviously more than that. it is treating them like second class citizens.
it is denying the large amount of scientific evidence of how the brains are hard-wired differently. whatever happened to the christian appreciation of how much god has created and what variation and such? infinite diversity in infinite combinations--you take away those people, and our world would be that much poorer. i have no tolerance for homophobia. my uncle, my best friends, my coworkers, they are all across the board--and they are no less of people. they pay taxes, they vote, they work, they do everything i do--but are denied the same treatment. that's what i would call prejudice. to say anything otherwise is foolish and dangerous. that is the attitude that got matthew shepard, tina brandon, and many, many others killed. it is not acceptable. it should NEVER be acceptable to treat someone differently, esp from something they cannot control.
stupid britney spears can marry as much as she wants and pop out kids she will never care for adequately, but it's perfectly acceptable here. but not a loving gay family. not people who would do anything to love and care for a child. or for each other. did you wake up one day and go, oh, i think im going to grow up and be heterosexual? no. do you think gays and lesbians wake up and go, oh, i think i will be a homosexual so i can be made fun of, degraded, treated less than equal, and potentially beat up or murdered just for the hell of it? no. that is the stupidest argument i have ever heard in my life. this is exactly what causes many gay people to hide their sexual orientation from others--fear of that hate. if i have to link a bunch of studies and articles that prove the genetics of this, i will. but this is disgusting to me--that it's ok to hate or dislike a whole group of people for something so prejudiced. it is on par, i.e. the SAME, as hating all black people, or all jews, because you don't like their race. period.
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Post by Dwazee on Nov 20, 2007 20:40:02 GMT -5
that may be what is construed as a rant, and perhaps my original assertion of what you, proud, termed discomfort was me being polite--but i am not going to be fucking polite about this anymore. it is hate, out and out. if you just dont like or prefer to be homosexual, fine, i dont want to be a lesbian--but i also dont stand in the way of others having the same rights as i do just because i dont want to have sex with a woman. no more being polite--i am sick and tired of people acting like oh, we can't say they are being bigots or hate-mongers because we don't want to offend anyone. i am offended that you would think so simplistically that gay people don't encounter hate, or that they shouldn't be afforded similar rights. it exists. i get to deal with it MANY times and i am sick of abetting these people. it is THEIR problem, not homosexuals or the transgendered.
/end rant
im sorry, but i am deeply hurt when i hear excuses that others use to judge and condemn a whole group of people. i hate it. it is 2007--we should be able to learn to get along by now.
phil, i would agree about the arts thing, of course. yeah, i think martin creed is an asshat who managed to many a balled up piece of paper a tate modern art piece crap, but hey, at least there's a dialogue. we could really consider, if you wanted, that everything is art. but there is good and bad art--and you dont know what from what without seeing it. i don't like when someone chooses something for me.
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Post by Matheus on Nov 20, 2007 21:12:54 GMT -5
Censorship is bad...  Forbidden love...  armageddon?  |
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Post by Matheus on Nov 20, 2007 21:15:32 GMT -5
well, i think on some level a lot of people who hate gay people are afraid--not necessarily self-loathers by any means, but ignorant of them as people. ive seen a lot of that here, where people are actually fearful of spending any time with a gay person, or having one as a roommate in a dorm because OMG something might happen or who do they hang out with or who they will bring home. i think it's an adequate description. ... Ignorance and fear aren't the same thing. Neither are hatred and fear. You're also giving examples of discomfort. Discomfort and fear aren't the same thing, either. So what exactly is causing the discomfort if it isn't fear??? I don't see any other reason for discomfort other than fear of being infected. Homosexuality is gonna get you next! |
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Post by chrisfan on Nov 20, 2007 22:16:03 GMT -5
the kids that have complained about being with homosexual roommates were exactly how i described--fearful of what might happen because all gay people are sex crazed deviants that will hit on them and try to convert them--their views. they also hate them because they believe they are an abomination and believe they are going to hell. ALL things that encompass the fear, ignorance, and hate that goes together. it is NOT discomfort for these kids. it is genuine fear and hate--these are the ones that have their parents call the president's office and call ME and tell me that well, that's just how they are, they hate gays. as if it's that they hate the color pink or brussel sprouts. Dwazee, I do not know the students you are talking about, so I realize that I"m speaking in very general terms while you're speaking of specific people. That acknowledged, when I was in college, had I been assigned a heterosexual male roommate, I would have been very uncomfortable with that. It would not be a matter of fear. It would not be based on an assumption that all heterosexual men are sex craved deviants who would jump on me in an instant. But the fact that the attraction COULD be there, could be implied, and could be misunderstood would make me very very uncomfortable. And I sure as hell don't fear heterosexual men!!! |
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Post by Dwazee on Nov 21, 2007 1:49:29 GMT -5
Dwazee, I do not know the students you are talking about, so I realize that I"m speaking in very general terms while you're speaking of specific people. That acknowledged, when I was in college, had I been assigned a heterosexual male roommate, I would have been very uncomfortable with that. It would not be a matter of fear. It would not be based on an assumption that all heterosexual men are sex craved deviants who would jump on me in an instant. But the fact that the attraction COULD be there, could be implied, and could be misunderstood would make me very very uncomfortable. And I sure as hell don't fear heterosexual men!!!
the problem, however, is that verrrry few homosexuals even bother with an idea of hitting on a straight person--partially because that's not their type, partially out of self-preservation, if you will. my best friend always scoffs at those people and points out that why in the world does everyone assume that they would be desirable? i mean, im sure im not attractive to everyone. ive also been friends with many, many lesbians who all knew i was very open-minded. never been hit on, never felt uncomfortable. it's the actual person, not the orientation that should be looked at. which is my point entirely. i can totally understand being uncomfortable being with a male and you are female in a dorm--i get that. i also get that it would be different to be with a gay person in a dorm. but again, the vast majority that i have encountered (here and abroad) don't really consider going after heterosexuals, which is something that heteros that are a little worried should know. as my own personal example, my roommate was bi. had noooo idea. i frolicked around in my undies so many times in my dorm. never once felt uncomfortable or put upon. maybe i am too trusting, but i genuinely never had an issue. neither had many of my friends. part of being a freshman in the dorms is learning to meet new people and discovering things you wouldn't normally at home. a lot of that experience is being micromanaged out by helicopter parents and spoiled kids who must have their way (not just roommate stuff either, i'm afraid). the situation i mentioned unfortunately isnt limited to just homosexuals every once in a while--it happens 9 times out of 10 if they find out their roommate's sexuality (which is why we all hate facebook). calls are made, students get moved. i've even had it for students who discover their new roommate is *the horrors* black. and then they throw a fuss saying that the new roommate is in a gang--and then call the president's line. most people find that incredibly disgusting--my point is just that it is the same thing to do that to someone who is gay. however, there just isn't the same stigma by any stretch. sometimes there isn't one at all. the hateful things i have heard from each and every case makes me realise just how far there is to go in seeing that just because someone likes someone else of the same sex, doesn't mean they aren't still a person. a person who has feelings, who can be friends, who can be an ass, who can do all the same things any of us can--just wanting equal rights for everyone, yanno  ps. last sidenote before a long weekend: my gay male friend got paired his freshman year with a guy who was a walk on for the football team, very conservative, and dealt just fine with living with him. so there's always hope that someday someone can learn, just by personal experience, that not every gay person will hit on them, and that there's nothing to be afraid of. yeah, there are always going to be assholes no matter where you look--gay, straight, whatever race. but that should be the factor, not something so arbitrary. happy turkey day all! ^- no turkeys for me since i eat veggies. must go rescue the poor little guys!! 
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Post by luke on Nov 21, 2007 9:58:33 GMT -5
Not sure how I'd feel about living with a gay guy in a dorm. In an apartment or a house? Sure, no issues.
But as a guy, I realize the complete decadence of a first year freshman living in a dorm, and it was hard enough living with a straight guy in that situation. In fact, I got a private dorm my second semester just to avoid all that. Drunk guys are drunk guys, doesn't matter what they put their wiener in. Of course, living with some guy that didn't even drink my first year of school would have been even worse.
That's all why I got the fuck out of the dorms, though.
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Post by Mary on Nov 21, 2007 11:37:12 GMT -5
dwaz i agree wtih 99% of everything you've written except this:
it is denying the large amount of scientific evidence of how the brains are hard-wired differently.
i know i've been down this road before, but i just wanted to reiterate that i think the evidence that homosexuality is genetic, hardwired, immutable, or inborn is pretty shoddy. the thing is, it doesn't actually make any moral difference whether or not it's genetically preprogrammed and immutable. if there's nothing wrong with it, then there's also nothing wrong with choosing it.
and i'm not suggesting you can just wake up one day and "choose" to change your orientation. between hardwiring and completely unconstrained choice there is a vast vast in-between area, of tendencies and experimentation and socialization and curiosity and shifting desires and willfulness. in some people it is probably more fixed than others. i certainly know of people who grew up in small towns a long time ago where homosexuality was completely beyond the pale and found themselves from a very young age struggling with sexual desire for same-sex partners - of course i would argue in such cases that homosexuality was not a choice. but on the flip side of the coin, i also know so many "bi-curious" women, some who have acted on it and some who haven't, and a smaller number of "bi-curious" men, and women who opted to become lesbians as a political choice, and people who moved to SF and suddenly "discovered" their queerness... it just strikes me that sexual desire is a pretty mysterious and unpredictable thing. the idea that it's either genetic or a choice strikes me as a false dichotomy anyway.
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Post by Mary on Nov 21, 2007 11:42:41 GMT -5
hey melon,
feel free not to answer this question if you don't want to, but i have this vague recollection of you mentioning that your father was a pastor, but i'm not sure if it's actually an accurate recollection. is this true? maybe i am confusing two different people or something.
(sorry to post this here, but i was pretty sure you're reading this board).
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Post by upinkzeppelin2 on Nov 21, 2007 19:18:48 GMT -5
Yes, and that's all the time I have to post today. I think. I might be back later.
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Post by upinkzeppelin2 on Nov 22, 2007 0:22:23 GMT -5
Mary,
Yes, my father who is now almost 68 retired from the pastorate about 7 years ago. He is quite simply the best preacher I've ever heard and I know that must be hard to believe to anyone hearing me claim that, but it is true. And I've heard a lot. Other people have said the same thing to me. It's not just because he happens to be my father that I say that. Honestly.
He was a Methodist pastor for about 20 years and as called by the Lord he left the Methodist church and began his own nondenominational church. Many people left the last Methodist church he pastored to join his new church. He now attends a Baptist church in a small town in South Alabama where he disagrees with some of the teachings. The pastor sometimes, but very rarely, invites him to preach. It usually only happens if he can't find anyone else because my father (who I'm very proud of) pulls no punches. If you're going to sit through one of my Dad's sermons, you can't chase it with anything. You must drink it straight. No BS. And even though only you, Mary, is probably reading this, I must add that the last time I heard him preach it made me cry. I cherish every minute I spend with him because he's had two heart attacks as of 4 years ago.
I was very surprised when he stepped down as pastor at the nondenominational church. I thought he would go down with his combat boots on, but he couldn't bear to deal with the "charismaniacs" and lukewarm bystanders any more. Soon after he left there was big church split. The charismaniacs got their way and turned the place into almost what you could consider a cult. When I say charismaniacs I'm talking about people who are neck deep in emotionalism and hype. I don't know why I wrote all this other than to brag on my Dad. He probably won't be here very much longer and I love him more than he knows.
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Post by chrisfan on Nov 22, 2007 8:06:04 GMT -5
Print that post and let him read it Melon.
Just out of curiosity Melon, did his departure to start a non-denominational church have more to do with the particular church he was assigned, or the organization of the Methodist church in general?
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