Booth # 4: Religion and Spirituality

[riley]

That dude doesn't look like me at all.

Well except for the halo. I have one of those.

[JACkory]

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Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.[/b]
Isaiah 53:4-5


" For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus..."
Romans 6:6-11

^{"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom."
Psalm 111:10}

[JACkory]

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[glow=teal,2,300]"Now we see but a poor reflection
as in a mirror;
then we shall see face to face.
Now I know in part;
then I shall know fully,
even as I am fully known."[/glow]

1 Corinthians 13:12

[JACkory]

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made.
In him was life,
and that life was the light of men.
The light shines in the darkness,
but the darkness has not understood it.


John 1:1-5

[JACkory]

[glow=brown,2,300] "I have been crucified with Christ
and I no longer live,
but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body,
I live by faith in the Son of God,
who loved me and gave himself for me.
I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[/glow]

Galations 2:20-21

[JACkory]

We know that we have passed from death to life,
because we love our brothers.
Anyone who does not love remains in death.
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer,
and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
[/i]

1 John 3:14

[RocDoc]

...within the theme of that last verse there, did you by any chance read the piece in the latest Rolling Stone about people who've developed relationships with(and 'forgiven' somehow) the killers of members of their families...
Weird, very weird and quite extreme, some of it...an interesting read.
Rev Everett is something else!

The ish with the 50 great moments in rock...

[JACkory]

Doc, I have not yet read that article. I do have the issue it's in but I have only had time to thumb through it. I saw the piece you refer to and made a mental note to read it as soon as possible. Just have'nt gotten around to it yet. I'll probably take it with me to work this weekend and read it then.
As Christians we are commanded to forgive as we have been forgiven, and in many cases this is one of the hardest things we must do. I mean, how can you forgive the people who flew the jets into the WTC? How can you forgive the assassins who beheaded Nick Berg?
It's a touchy subject, but in most cases forgiveness is a healing process to the one who does the forgiving. I don't know if I believe that we are expected to forgive each and every person who has done us wrong.
When Jesus taught us how to pray, He instructed us to petition the Father to "forgive our trespasses (sins) as we forgive those who trespass (sin) against us". I believe that the Lord DOES forgive us and that we should do likewise to those who have offended us. But the Lord doesn't hold us to a higher standard than He Himself adheres to (how ludicrous it would be for anyone to expect that?). The Bible teaches that those who repent of their sins and turn to Christ in belief and complete trust will be forgiven. Nowhere does it state that everyone will be forgiven. People must acknowledge and confess to the Lord that they are sinners and have sinned before they can receive the forgiveness and grace that He offers.
So am I bound by my beliefs to forgive the 9/11 terrorists who died secure in their own belief that they were not sinning, but doing an honourable thing according to their religion?
I don't think so.
God has not forgiven them, so why should I?

It's hard enough to forgive people who have done us dirty. In many cases I don't believe it's humanly possible to literally forgive, so we have to trust in God to forgive us for our own inability to forgive and try not to let it drive us crazy. Only God knows the hearts of people, and so I've found that it's best to leave that to Him and just try to cut as much slack to everyone as you can. I forgive when I am able to, and the closer I grow towards God the more I am able to forgive. And usually I find that my spirit is edified when I forgive, as I know that grudges and anger kept within are much more detrimental to ME than to who I may be harbouring ill-will against...

I know you personally don't put much stock in the Bible as the absolute depository of revealed truth, so I don't expect you to agree with everything I've said here. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss the issue with you, though, and may share my thoughts about the Rolling Stone article after I've read it, if you're still interested...

[RocDoc]

I think that the truth is closest in what you said here:

In many cases I don't believe it's humanly possible to literally forgive, so we have to trust in God to forgive us for our own inability to forgive and try not to let it drive us crazy.

I think that, whatever entity we wish to believe in that governs such things, WISHES for us a mechanism to simply handle the crazy, sad and traumatic shit that WILL happen in a person's life.

We're not SUPPOSED to be driven nuts by what represents a 'normal' life....and bad stuff does and WILL happen in a world such as ours.

We're allowed to cut ourselves some slack by nearly ANY reasonable means possible....and 'fool ourselves' if need be, bypassing the 'normal' processing of certain tragedies which would only take us to a dead end in reasoning, which would literally destroy us and make us UNfunctional...

That's the way I perceived these peoples' need to do what MANY would consider highly unreasonable and illogical.... they would have remained permanent basket cases as a result of the horrors they were put through...and said 'no'.

Which should be something to be admired once you realize they've chosen to go on.

[JACkory]

Doc, I read the article a couple of days ago, and it is interesting to say the least. It certainly had me scanning through my Bible to find more insight.
Definately called to forgive as we've been forgiven. In fact, at one point Jesus even says that if we don't forgive others our Father won't forgive us ("For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."---Matthew 6:14-15)...
Those are the words of Jesus, so I have to take them seriously. Still, as I stated in my last post, I don't think we are being asked to be forgiving in an all-encompassing manner. Here's a parable that I think sheds some light on the subject:

"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before him. `Be patient with me,' he begged, `and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. `Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, `Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
Then the master called the servant in. `You wicked servant,' he said, `I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." (Matthew 18:23-35)

Note that the master was prepared to exercise judgement upon the servant until the servant begged for merce, at which point the master had pity. The servant was given a similar opportunity to forgive his fellow servant but chose to be unmerciful. In both cases the servants acknowledged their indebtedness and petitioned their debtor for mercy.
Had the first servant not begged for mercy, would he have been forgiven? Highly doubtful.
We (Christians) should forgive as we have been forgiven, but we should not forget that we asked for forgiveness or we would likely not have recieved it.
I think it's a beneficial thing to forgive even if the offending party has not been repentant, but I don't think that's the kind of forgiving that we are commanded to exercise.
I think Hank Hannegraff has some interesting thoughts on this subject that you might be able to find at www.equip.org.

As for the article, ya know, I didn't get the impression by the author's words that Carlucci and Everett were really all that close. Of course, it's difficult to get the full picture in a 6-7 page article. Not that it even matters...I just think that Everett is one amazing individual...

[stratman19]

One thing though...ProudIllness, you say that you used to be a Christian but no more...Maybe you don't agree with the doctrine of eternal security, but if you were ever really a Christian, you still are, even if you choose to deny and mock the Lord. May I suggest the book Eternal Security by Charles Stanley for a thorough exposition of this tenet of the Christian faith...

Any space here for an agnostic? The above comments (directed at Proud) have left many questions for me.

[JACkory]

All are welcomed, stratman. Consider the red carpet rolled out for you...

I hope I'll be able to answer your questions, and if I can't, perhaps I can persuade someone with a greater understanding of the issues to address them.

[melon1]

Hey JACKory,

So this is what I wanted to share with you here concerning Eternal Security. It is page from a book entitled "Love is Not Blind" by Bob McLeod, my second cousin who runs a halfway house in NE Alabama. I believe I had you look at his website: www.brokenstone.org . Anyhow, here's his take on the issue of "once saved, always saved" which is right on target if you ask me.

All religious arguments are symptoms of spiritual blindness.

Probably the most intense argument over the years has been the issue of "once saved, always saved". Can a person be saved today and lost tomorrow? Is it possible for me to receive Jesus, Who is Eternal Life(John 11:25), and still die and enter eternity lost?

This one simple question has been the source of contention, division, and misunderstanding among those claiming to be Christians for centuries and continues to be.

After so many debates, books, fights, pouting and pain, this simple little question continues to remain in the back of so many minds, haunting and oppressing.

Are we "once saved, always saved"?

Only God Himself can give birth. When the real Jesus Christ enters a soul, that soul is saved, is being saved and will be saved!

It's God Himself Who is at work in us to accomplish His good will and purpose(Philippians 2:15), and He Who has begun this good work will complete it!

There are, however, masses of people deceived into believing they are saved when in reality they are lost!

Those who endure until the end are saved. Those who don't, aren't.(Matthew 24:13)

The issue then is not "once saved, always saved". The issue is counterfeit conversions.

The religious Pharisees were deceived into thinking they were God's elect when in reality they didn't even recognize God when He walked into their midst.

[JACkory]

Hey, melon...
I DID check out that brokenstone website back when you told me about it, and indeed it is in my "Favorites" even now. I had no idea it was ran by your second cousin! That's pretty cool!

I think we're in agreement when it comes to eternal security. I don't know that I'm comfortable with the concept of "counterfeit conversion" being an issue, because who knows the reasons, the why and the wherefore of each individual's personal relationship with God (besides God Himself, of course)...I certainly wouldn't attempt to evangelize to a person who considered himself/herself a Christian, regardless of any differing theological concepts that might divide us (not that I wouldn't be comfortable pointing out obvious false beliefs, like Oneness Trinitarian doctrine, etc...).
Nevertheless, there is no doubt in my mind that many who call themselves "Christians" are anything but...specifically those who continue to believe that the good things THEY do in this life are what gets them into heaven. Those who are trusting in their good works to save them are fighting a losing battle...
But that doesn't really apply to what we've been discussing, which is the eternal security of the believer who has been shown by the light of the living God the magnitude of his/her sins, realizes there is nothing he/she can do on their own to facillitate reconciliation, repents and trusts in Jesus Christ to do it for him/her, spiritually dies to the old self and allows Christ, through the Holy Spirit, to live within, which is the "born again" experience in a nutshell. Such a believer will understand the magnitude of the sin that kept him/her from a relationship with God and will be forever grateful for the price that Jesus Christ paid in order to make it possible for us to return to our awesome, omnipotent Father. Such gratitude manifests itself in a change of attitude and a desire to please our most worthy Benefactor, which compels us to do our utmost best to live our lives according to the precepts He has taught us in the Scriptures, most if not all of which hinge on the commandment to love one another as we love ourselves...
And yet, the human spirit is weak, and the ways of the world often do awful damage to the psyche and to our ability to hope, dream, even believe. And so many Christians find themselves getting caught up in them, backsliding and straying farther and farther away from God. But while such a person may try to flee from God, God will never leave or forsake him/her.
Even if Alzheimers destroys the mind of a Christian to the point where they think they're Adolf Hitler, their soul is still sealed and their name is still written in the Lamb's book of life.
We can "lose our faith", but we can never lose our salvation.
Read Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

[stratman19]

JAC, thanks for the welcome, but upon further contemplation, I've decided that I can't/won't discuss religion. It just makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, uneasy, and ignorant. I'm also uncomfortable discussing it in such a public forum. Perhaps some day...