Booth # 4: Religion and Spirituality

[JACkory]

Before I continue in my response to your statements, I would like to share this passage of Scripture from 1 Corinthians that I think argues well for the validity of eternal security:
" It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:1-5)
Here we have a report of a man, a believer, who is involved in an incestuous relationship and yet Paul tells us his spirit will be saved on the day of the Lord. Now I don't claim to have a clear understanding of what is meant by his sinful nature being destroyed as a result of him having been "handed over to Satan", but I do understand how his spirit can still be saved. It's because the man was a born again believer with the Holy Spirit dwelling within and the righteousness of Christ credited to him. No matter how far gone that man might have gone, his spirit was still sealed by God's Holy Spirit and would still be refined, purified and sanctified when he left this world.
Now if eternal security were not a reality and the things we do after salvation were able to cause us to lose our salvation, don't you think this guy would have lost it? I mean, incest is a pretty major sin, right? And yet Paul tells us his spirit will be saved on the day of the Lord.
How do you respond to that?

Okay, back to your statements:

God's will in our lives depends on our will. He will not violate our will. So He is actually not able to sanctify, purify, or justify you unless you LET Him.

Woooaah!!! Talk about your "red flags"! What do you mean God is NOT ABLE unless I "let Him"? Surely you agree that God is omnipotent, right? That means He is ABLE to do ANYTHING He so desires.
But I know what you're trying to say, so I won't jam you up as a result of semantics on that point, even though I still disagree. God is sovereign and can do anything He pleases as long as it does not contradict His nature.
As for God's will in our lives DEPENDING ON OUR WILL, perhaps we are not agreed about the meaning of "God's will" but as far as I'm concerned God's will is dependent upon nothing and noone other than God's good pleasure. The most wretched sinner on earth is doing God's will just as much as the most devout saint is. There's no getting around it, for God's will SHALL be done. When we read the account of Joseph in the book of Genesis we see how good and evil both played a part in God's will (and are also shown how the end result was for good and God's glory). Likewise, if future generations were able to look back on each individual person's actions and how they effected all around them they would be able to see how God's will was being fulfilled at that moment, because they would be able to see the consequences and the result of it all (and we know, through Scriptural teaching, that all things work together for good for all those who love the Lord and who are called according to His purpose, so we can have confidence that the outcome of all these actions will be a good one, at least for those who love the Lord...)

continued next post

[JACkory]

Do you think that if Moses didn't come along and LET God work through him, God would have left his people in Egypt? No. He would have risen up somebody else.

Nope, I don't think that. Because God is omniscient (knows all), He knew that Moses was the one to lead the captives from Egypt. He knew this because before Moses had even been born God already knew everything about him as well as everything that would happen to him. To be a prophet of God and lead the Israelites to the promised land, as well as all the other great things that Moses did, was Moses pre-ordained destiny. Noone else could have done it, because noone else was created for that purpose.
You have to understand that God already knows how it's all gonna end. If the panoramic spectacle of the history of mankind could be likened to a complex motion picture, you could say that God's seen it all and knows it by heart. Of course He does, because He's the One who wrote the screenplay, picked the actors, directed it, produced it and was the set designer. He's not bound by constrictions of space and time, so He can view it at His leisure. We, on the other hand, will never know how the movie ends or even really how our part in it effects the content of the film because, alas, we are the actors (something that William Shakespeare was able to say much more poetically in his line about "All the world is a stage and we are merely players").
What this has to do with what we've been discussing is that all people have a God-given destiny, a role in that cosmic film, as it were, and since the "script" has already been written, there is no way that we WON'T fulfill whatever destiny that might be, even though we may never know exactly what it is.
And our "destiny" is simply our part in God's will...

"For those who endure to the end shall be saved."

I take this passage to mean that such perserverence is a sure indication of salvation. I don't see where it says "ONLY those who endure will be saved"...remember the context in which Jesus spoke these words. He was telling His disciples, as He sent them out to minister, that they would face bitter persecution for His name's sake. In the one sentence He let them know that there WOULD be an end to the persecution, that it was indeed possible to endure, and that such endurance was a sure sign of one's salvation. But nowhere can I find a passage of scripture that implies that endurance is, by neccesity, a prerequisite to salvation.

continued next post

[JACkory]

Many times families cling to a pet doctrine called "once saved, always saved" in hopes that no matter how evil their loved one becomes, he'll go to Heaven when he dies, all because he prayed the prayer one day.

Well, I can say that this is NOT the reason I "cling" to the "once saved always saved" doctrine. I do so because I genuinely believe it is Scriptural and because I believe that Christ alone is responsible for everything that concerns my salvation, not me and not my works...

The 'Sinner's Prayer' is nothing but words unless there is a heart change

I'm certainly not going to argue that the Sinner's Prayer is "just a bunch of words" unless the person saying it is sincerely repentant, but the "heart change" comes as a result of the Holy Spirit working within and is something that we ourselves are unable to accomplish on our own.

Remember when Jesus said,"Not all that say,'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to me on that day,'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers'." ?

The ones who Jesus called "evildoers" and sent away were the ones who came to Him boasting about their works. "Look at what WE did, Jesus! We prophesied in Your name! WE drove out demons! WE performed many miracles!" They came before the Lord with the expectation that WHAT THEY HAD DONE was going to be their means of entering the kingdom of Heaven. But the Lord told them, "I never knew you"...
That parable tells me that anyone trusting in their own works to get to Heaven is in for a bad surprise. For the will of the Father in Heaven is for us to live by faith in the grace that saves us, NOT our works.

Then what do you do with scriptures like this?: 2 Timothy 2:12 - If we endure we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us.

This Scripture is prefaced by the words "Here is a trustworthy saying", and it is in reference to Jesus' words in Matthew 10:32-33, ""Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." So the point is to find out what "acknowledge" and "disown" entail. And I would venture to guess that they are basically the same thing as "accept" and "reject". The born again believer has accepted/acknowledged, while the unbeliever has rejected/disowned. Therefore this is a matter of "who has salvation" and "who has not salvation" rather than a warning to those who have salvation that they will lose it if they fall.
Yes, those who endure WILL reign with Christ. They are Christ's crowning glory. And who, pray tell, will they reign over? Do I even need to answer that?

I also want to know what you think of this passage from 2 Peter Chapter 2:
"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end then they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and 'a sow that is washed goes back to its wallowing in the mud'."

Of course they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning because even though they had access to the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives, they became entangled in the ways of the world and missed God's abundant blessings IN THIS LIFE. They had an excuse "in the beginning" (before salvation) to be overcome, because they were dead in sin and without the Spirit. But now that they know the Lord (and note that it says the DO KNOW him), they have no excuse, and that makes them worse off than they were at the start...
At any rate, I see absolutely nothing in these verses that would lead me to believe that they are in regards to the assurance of one's salvation.

Like I said earlier, I talked with Bob McLeod today and I told him that I posted something from one of his books on a message board concerning "once saved, always saved." He said,"Here's a theology buster for you: John 15:16: ' I chose you. You didn't choose Me.' If He's chosen you, how's He gonna UNchoose you."

Well, there you go. 100% agree with that statement...maybe there's some Calvinism in your bloodline after all?
But seriously, don't you think that statement does more to support the eternal security doctrine than to counteract it?

I don't have the kind of mood day in and day out that is upbeat and happy. I don't think that means I'm not filled with the spirit. I just have a more depressed mood than the average person. But on the other hand you may be in a mood most of the time that would seem euphorical to me so I'm open to anything you have to say.

Gee, melon, if you only knew! I struggle with depression to an almost intolerable extent. I once read a biographical blurb about Fyodor Dostoevski in which the author spoke of one of Dostoevski's friends describing him as "the most miserable Christian he ever met", and when I read that I had this thought: "That guy never knew me!" And that's not far from the truth. My struggle with depression has affected my own attempts to walk in the Spirit to a great degree and has taught me that it's not about feelings but only about what the Word of God says is true. That's the only sure gauge, so I trust it, despite my feelings (which simply cannot be trusted).
But the Lord HAS done marvelous things in my life that I can point to as evidence of the surety of my faith in Him. I'm not the man I want to be YET, but thank God I'm not the man I was. In His time I will be. Even though I get frustrated because I don't see the results I expect, I have to back up and realize that there's a reason why I'm on God's clock, even if I don't understand it...
Trust me, I am the farthest thing from "euphorical" that you could ever imagine (haven't been euphorical since I kicked the marijuana...).
I think I know where you're coming from when you speak of the "super-ticklish" version of the eternal security doctrine, and if I'm right I would have to agree with you about that. Eternal security belongs to the believer. Anyone who thinks that eternal security is a doctrine that takes precedence over any of the basic tenants of Orthodox Christian faith is probably only fooling themselves.
I think our only dividing line is "who is saved and who is not saved", and as I mentioned much earlier in this discussion, I am VERY uncomfortable discussing that issue, because it is not up to any of us to make that decision (even if we do have an understanding of what God's plan of salvation is, I don't think we have the right to say that God is Himself bound to any laws He has set forth for US...so even though I DO believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, I think that means that Jesus has the authority to do whatever HE wants in regards to any particular person's salvation, and it's a comfort to know that He is absolutely JUST)...

Once again, I look forward to your reply. Indeed, iron sharpens iron. None of us should resist the opportunity to get honed up when it presents itself.
May God bless your journey...

[Thorngrub]

If Jesus were around, I would surely like to smoke a bowl with him.

[RocDoc]

Having read prob 90% of at least this last page here, I like to think(and I know that my attempt to basically try to fashion my own idea of a 'benificent' God is, to the faith-based 'believer', simply my convenient self-serving hogwash)of God as not simply using earth and human beings as simply a crucible to test the depth of faith in Him, while having given the most debatable, oft-conflicting(viz the discussion you guys are having)'material' he's supposedly approved for these supremely fallible earthlings to use as some sort of 'rough' guide/rulebook to what it actually is which He expects of us....all the while knowing how every last single one of us is going to react and perceive all of his tenets ANYway.

Talk about setting up a deliberate trainwreck.

My impression is that 'MY' God simply has no reason to be that cruel.
Nor would he be so blase about us that he wouldn't inject even the least motivating force into our lives to be 'good', to lead exemplary compasssionate lives...which to me makes for a acceptably progressive society-at-large, where fewer people would see fit to simply fuck with their fellow man because
1.)it pleases them and
2.)because there's simply no thought process in place which MIGHT cause them to stop.

No threat of punishment for your 'deeds'.

Nor..

...any sort of ephemeral 'reward'(as ephemeral as JUST the good feeling of having done something 'good' for someone else)for your 'deeds'.

I honestly see this as extremely cynical a view for a productive, free-thinking, though apparently totally deterministic entity(which basically pull the rug out from ANYthing we might do, regarding 'salvation' here) which then God governs 'at His pleasure'...or not.

~

...and I am NOT anti-Christian or anti-Catholic in nearly any way, UNTIL I sense what seems to be rigid doctrinaire viewpoint which give us an entirely negative position in the 'scheme of things'...and which gives an impression of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't, it don't matter one whit...' regarding how this God views works, deeds, behavior and such...that 'born again' is the figurative 'get out of jail free'-card without regard to however many lives you may have ruined in your wake.

OK, I guess I can see that I also am being very cynical regarding the way that this particular branch here, purports to give 'hope' to one and all, even the most outrageously fundamentally 'sick' among us...but the apparent lack of any accountability bothers me.

~

On a semi-unrelated note, isn't it interesting the preponderance of jailhouse conversions to Islam and the way that THAT religion relates to this figurative 'Get out of jail free'-concept...

[melon1]

Thanks for such a long, well-thought-out response, JAC. I believe I'll begin with this:

We will NOT be judged according to what we have done. We, as believers who have trusted in Christ for salvation, will be judged according to what HE has done, for His righteousness has been imputed to us

OK, I'm going to agree with you here. Oh no, what's happening? I'm giving in!!! Oh no!!!!!


hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.


OK, that is proof that God will see to it that we endure until the end. He will do His part. He will even hand us over to satan if necessary to bring us to repentance. But what I get out what out your post is that you believe we CAN'T screw it up. We don't even have a choice to. Notice in the passage that you quoted that handing the man over to satan was God's way of bringing the man to repentance SO his spirit would be saved in the end. If the man could have been saved no matter what then Paul wouldn't have stressed the urgency to "turn this man over to Satan". Yes those who don't "fall away" will be judged according to what Christ did on the cross but the Bible specifically states that one can fall away. You knew this was coming eventually:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted of the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to a public disgrace."

And then the part that says "in the end it will be burned", after reading that it seems like nothing other than denial than to agree that it's talking about someone being cast into hell. When it says "to their own loss", it means their loss of salvation. Of course you don't agree because it doesn't use the word salvation. But that to me is wishful thinking and the way Charles Stanley explains "falling away" as not losing your salvation but having to walk the rest of this life's journey without a relationship with God while you're enjoying orgies and drugs is the most staggering case of wishful thinking I've ever seen. I once spoke to a prophet who was the first "man of God" I ever came in contact with who believed in the doctrine of "eternal security" and he used the same passage of scripture about the man who was "turned over to satan". When I asked him what he thought of Hebrews 6 he said,"Well, I think the author of Hebrews simply misunderstood some people that he was preaching to," or something to that effect.

Continued in next post

[Proud]

i'm personally an atheist. i do respect the commitment and passion people have for their individual religions however, but i do encourage thinking about what you choose to believe in, and to what extent. there is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with being a member of almost any major religion. as long as you're not hurting anyone, people have the right to express their beliefs or lack thereof.

the reason i'm an atheist is because i have doubts about all of the religions i've come across, and i wonder about... certain claims that are made in many of them (for example, the idea that the earth is only approximately 6,000 years old). i guess it's the stories themselves. of course, religions do leave much up to interpretation...

[melon1]

They came before the Lord with the expectation that WHAT THEY HAD DONE was going to be their means of entering the kingdom of Heaven. But the Lord told them, "I never knew you"...
That parable tells me that anyone trusting in their own works to get to Heaven is in for a bad surprise. For the will of the Father in Heaven is for us to live by faith in the grace that saves us, NOT our works.


Very well stated, JAC. I agree with you 100% here. And those who thought they could "do right to be right" had "counterfiet conversions" IMO.

I'm still torn between two views, I must admit, when it comes to the "eternal security" subject. Luckily for me my salvation doesn't depend on my opinion in that area. But I'm still stuck on Hebrews 6, 2 Peter 2 and many other instances in scripture that contradict this doctrine that seems to scratch what "itching ears" want to hear. I'll leave you with this to consider: Chapter 2 of 2nd Peter talks about those who are "twice dead", who have "left the straight way". Get this, JAC, not to be a smartass and definitely not to take pleasure in the punishment of the wicked but while it's referring to these people who have "left the straight way", meaning they were once on it(right?), it says in verse 17 that "Blackest darkness is reserved for them". I honestly don't see how you can dance around that one. But I'll be willing to listen to your response minus any cynicism.

May God continue to bless you too.

[JACkory]

To RocDoc:
I'm not quite sure how to properly address your post, Doc. You bring up several points that deserve to be addressed, but you also throw out blatant assumptive critiques of God (that He is cruel, blase, doesn't "reach out" to "inject motivating force into our lives", et. al.) that I find insulting and, to be honest, quite unwarranted.

I like to think(and I know that my attempt to basically try to fashion my own idea of a 'benificent' God is, to the faith-based 'believer', simply my convenient self-serving hogwash)of God as not simply using earth and human beings as simply a crucible to test the depth of faith in Him,

That would be something that God has in common with the God you would attempt to fashion after your own idea of a "beneficent God".
The rest of the statement, which characterizes the Bible as a "rough guide/rulebook" doesn't even apply seeing as how
1) We are in agreement that God is not testing our depth of faith in Him
and
2) The characterization of the Bible as a "rough guide/rulebook", even as a crude comparison, is not accurate.
A thorough study of the Bible will reveal that, though interpretations of it most definately can be, the book itself is NOT "oft-conflicting".

My impression is that 'MY' God simply has no reason to be that cruel.
Nor would he be so blase about us that he wouldn't inject even the least motivating force into our lives to be 'good', to lead exemplary compasssionate lives...which to me makes for a acceptably progressive society-at-large, where fewer people would see fit to simply fuck with their fellow man because
1.)it pleases them and
2.)because there's simply no thought process in place which MIGHT cause them to stop.

The motivating force is LOVE.
It is most definately from God, as "God IS love".
My impression is that God is most definately anything BUT cruel.
People are.
Let's place the blame for society's woes where it belongs...People, not God, are responsible for the consequences that arise out of the choices they make.

You call the re-birth a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.
I beg to differ.
The believer gives his whole life to the Lord, body, soul and mind. We are commanded to follow Him, to carry His cross, to be CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, basically to DIE to ourselves and to the world so that we might live with Him. What's "free" about that?
This is all in the spiritual sense, as much in the Bible is, so unless we have an agreed upon understanding of what IS in regards to spiritual (heavenly) things and what IS in regards to the temporal (flesh) we are likely to run into difficulty expressing ourselves about these things. It is for this reason that I am hesitant to discuss the topic with anyone who doesn't find it necessary to seperate the two...
It is also in no way a "Get Out Of Jail Free" concept because Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price, His own life, so that we might partake in God's plan of salvation.

OK, I guess I can see that I also am being very cynical regarding the way that this particular branch here, purports to give 'hope' to one and all, even the most outrageously fundamentally 'sick' among us...but the apparent lack of any accountability bothers me.

Why would you deny the "most outrageously fundamentally sick among us" the same hope as given to the most morally upright? Who is responsible for the sickness? Not God, I can tell you.
And we ARE accountable... to God. Did you read the section about the judgment seat of Christ in my posts?

I have tried not to let my feelings get in the way of this response, and so it is my hope that I haven't said anything that causes offense.
If you've never read the entire Bible why not buy a good study edition and invest some quality time in thoroughly investigating it...call it a hobby if you want...read it (study notes and all) and then tell me if you think it was ever meant to be a "rough guide/rulebook". If you have already read it and you still are of the mind that it is what you characterize it as being, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

To Melon:
And then the part that says "in the end it will be burned", after reading that it seems like nothing other than denial than to agree that it's talking about someone being cast into hell.

melon, I've almost run out of time here, but let me just say that the verse we're talking about here compares the outcome of the non-productive Christian's life to land that is burned. This is an ANALOGY and for one to infer that it means the non-productive Christian will burn in hell is stretching it beyond the point of credibility. I am not so literal about the Bible that I believe that hell is LITERALLY fire and brimstone. Jesus and the Biblical authors used these terms because of their power in getting an idea across. And though I don't believe that hell is literal fire, I do believe that it will be WORSE than literal fire...

To ProudIllness:
Thanks for your honesty.
I also encourage "thinking about what one chooses to believe in".

[stratman19]

I'd say it makes you a seeker. You acknowledge that there's "something greater than yourself" and you're trying to understand it.
I think that's great, and I'd also like to think that it's because you have a seed of faith buried in that heart of yours. But I won't presume to say that because, really, who am I to say that? It's just my hope...so hopefully no offense is taken.

No offense taken JAC.


What I'd REALLY like to know, seeing as how the conversation has already effectively ended, is if you were able to sleep after you said that prayer...

I couldn't let the conversation end without answering your question JAC. I finally was able to sleep. The weight of the world, and the fear for my soul, were lifted from my young shoulders. It felt so peaceful.

In many ways, it's a shame I guess, that the innocence of youth is lost on the realities of adulthood. I admire your faith, as well as Melon's. If you're familiar with Runaway Train by Soul Asylum, that seems to be the story of my life.

Anyway, I want to thank you and Melon for trying to help, I really do. I'll be alright. I always have been.

[Meursault]

I believe in NA and perhaps AA they have tendency to have some sort of prayer thats more or less saying thank you at night (being mindful of the things your greatful for) and please in the morning (reminding yourself of the things you'd like to see happen in life etc) i find that's a nice little "prayer."

[JACkory]

Melon1 said:

I'll leave you with this to consider: Chapter 2 of 2nd Peter talks about those who are "twice dead", who have "left the straight way". Get this, JAC, not to be a smartass and definitely not to take pleasure in the punishment of the wicked but while it's referring to these people who have "left the straight way", meaning they were once on it(right?), it says in verse 17 that "Blackest darkness is reserved for them". I honestly don't see how you can dance around that one

[/i][/u]. But I'll be willing to listen to your response minus any cynicism[/quote]

I have to admit I'm a little bit offended at the implication that I've been "dancing around" the Scripture verses you've given me to support your position.
To be honest, I can't really "dance around" 2 Peter 2, and the best I can do is to say that it's obvious that the type of person the apostle is talking about never had salvation in the first place (despite the reference to "the straight way").

At any rate, all this talk of who is saved and who isn't has really become discouraging to me, as I will always maintain that God is the only One who knows anyway. Just the thought that I could do something to lose my salvation is a stumbling block to me, as I don't believe it's possible. Jesus died to set us free from, among other things, having to worry about every little thing we do, whether it's going to be the "straw that breaks the Camel's back" or whatever.

[melon1]

Hey JAC, I'm truly sorry man. Check your PM.

[RocDoc]

I'm sorry JAC...it seeeeems to me that you're looking for this nice clear cut separation of a person's temporal life from this 'spiritual' side which God says CAN absolve all evil he's ever done...with the proper repentance(or not, since Jesus' life already 'paid' whatever debt anyone has owed, like you said)or simply the embracement of 'love' as your ruling purpose subsequent to having been any sort of a miserable, vindictive, violent person previously.

What of my concept that a bit of motivation in the temporal life still being a good thing...in the absence of having embraced 'love' as your guiding concept from your first breaths?

How about that motivation causing you to be a good example to a son, a daughter? Ones who instead may see a miserable, terminally angry parent...and as THE example there before them(after all you ARE a parent whom they love)what damn good is it that they emulate and RE-embody your poor behavior....making YOUR same mistakes over and over?

Why does there HAVE to be this apparent disconnect between a malcontented negatively portrayed temporal life(tho you should take this to the extreme ends of that spectrum, the worst people whom you say God STILL forgives and welcomes), a life which impacts SO many innocents(and granted, prob NOT-so-innocents as well), setting the WORST possible examples and role models for children and young people.
A thing which perpetuates so much MORE misery,
dare-I-say, evil....and its acceptance when someone can say, 'Uncle Zeb, he sure was a wild one, ran with a wild crowd, spent some jail time for something he just won't talk about...but wow, what a change came over him!'...and in the meantime, all the people he touched negatively are still feeing it.

And not just a few will also be acting out a similar anger which one of Zeb's thoughtless acts might've brought to the fore....or others might have retreated into a shell because of literal shell-shock/post-traumatic psychosis at what Zeb did to them...or their loved ones.

OK, I realize(tho maybe you don't)that I'm formulating 'my god' for myself and not for you or Melon or anyone else. One that makes the most sense to me in an incomprehensible random world...where people ARE accountable for the long-lasting bad influence they can cast on other's lives. Influence which continues to be carried on in their childrens' childrens' acquired neuroses....something which to me, can only be seen as counter to any sort of 'world of love'...

The world you're dealing in seems to me to be one in which our 'evil nature', our cruelty, greed, avarice and pettiness, all become an inescapable given...so that forgiveness is no more than an 'Ooops, ha-ha...I did it againforgivemeplease'-instant afterthought.

Tho not everyone can be like that Reverend Whathisname in the RS article who 'forgave' his daughter's(or son's, was it?)killer....THAT dude was extreme. Especially saddled with the paroled killer who wasn't shown to be particularly likeable. Or repentant either, as I recall.

....and I'd hope that you don't take this as an offensive criticism of what you personally feel you need to believe in.

I know that I'm making this shit up as I go...and maybe this rings more true now that I've got a little boy who's future is nothing but a series of question marks, many of which I will be answerable for...and I feel that having a kid of your own to whom you're showing your basest, most selfish side....THAT at the very least should be as grave as can be, if not unforgiveable...because of their impressionability. They carry YOU with them. The good and the bad.

Tho, hope for 'forgiveness' lest your life continue to be one totally negative mess once you have fucked up, for that reason alone HOPE for it with all your might...but REALLY be sorry(don't rely on Jesus' sacrifice to have been enough)....and go on as positively as you can.

[Mary]

*warily tiptoing into the room*

Rocdoc made no "assumptive critiques" about God at all. He merely said that he thought a certain interpretation of God implied a lack of beneficence and a certain amount of cruelty. I agree 100% with him, and you can't expect people who don't share the entire doctrinaire framework of your personal religious beliefs to simply accept that your abstract vision of God as loving and beneficent is necessarily consistent with your specific description of salvation and damnation.

There are countless things about fundamentalist Christianity that I find utterly morally repugnant. That does not mean I am accusing God himself of being morally repugnant - that would only be the case if I accepted that fundamntalism's view of God was the correct one. As an agnostic, I can't even begin to make that kind of judgment.

I don't know if God exists, but I do agree with the old cliche that we'd almost certainly invent a God even if there was no such thing - I just think the concept of God is such a natural outgrowth of human beings facing the certain knowledge of their own mortality. The fear of death lies at the root of so much art, so much religion, so much philosophy, so much literature - it is the motivating force behind huge swaths of human creativity. We desperately search for some kind of transcendence, for some kind of force that persists after death, for something that has the capacity to redeem so many painful and miserable lives. Religion is surely part of mankind's answer to existential anxiety.

M