JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Jul 25, 2004 17:32:43 GMT -5
I appreciate and respect your decision to decline discussion, but would still like to invite you to PM me anytime you would like to talk about it privately...whatever you do, there is NO REASON to feel uncomfortable, uneasy or ignorant about the subject (though I understand how volatile a topic it is and can't blame you or anyone for any trepidation one might feel about discussing it in a public forum).
At any rate, it's still good to have you around as a lurker...
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Post by melon1 on Jul 25, 2004 19:04:01 GMT -5
Hey JAC,
I've read Eternal Security by Charles Stanley, most of it anyway. When I read it I was a staunch believer in the fact that people could "fall away" after believing and receiving forgiveness of sins. I was reading for the distinct purpose of proving that doctrine as false. I believed that: true, nothing can rip us out of His hands but we can walk away. In other words, we have a choice to abandon our faith and walk away from it rejecting it in an irrevocable manner. Lucifer fell from heaven. Therefore, my belief was that we could fall from salvation. I didn't agree with the way that Charles Stanley danced around Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, especially the part where he completely forgot to mention verses 7 and 8 from Chapter 6, mainly verse 8. When Stanley talks about the pastor he met that decided he wanted to quit the pastorate, divorce his wife, run off with another woman and do what he wanted the rest of his life, I did not believe and still don't believe that that man is saved. My beliefs now are that that man was never saved in the first place. "No good tree produces bad fruit. And no bad tree produces good fruit." But as far as eternal security goes, I do believe in it along the same lines as my second cousin, Bob, does. Those who endure to the end are the ones who were truly saved and didn't have a "counterfiet conversion". Counterfiet conversions are indeed the real issue at hand. It is my opinion that those who have "tasted of the Heavenly Gift and the powers of the coming age" will never fall away. Why? Because there is no evidence that I know of that anyone has ever "committed apostasy" who really knew Jesus. Therefore, it is my belief also that Judas was never saved in the first place. I did mention Lucifer earlier but I forgot to add the fact that in 1st John it says that "the devil has been sinning from the beginning." Those are my thoughts on the subject anyway. Would love some feedback.
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Jul 26, 2004 18:30:46 GMT -5
Melon...give me a chance to think on some of the things you stated in your last post and I promise I will respond accordingly.
I will say that I did re-read the chapters in the Stanley book dealing with the passages in Hebrews, and though I would have preferred he had gone into greater depth, I have to say I'm in agreement with what he wrote.
And I am still quite uncomfortable with the notion of a "counterfeit conversion", but I will hopefully have more to say about that when I have a chance to respond...
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Jul 27, 2004 10:20:48 GMT -5
But as far as eternal security goes, I do believe in it along the same lines as my second cousin, Bob, does. Those who endure to the end are the ones who were truly saved and didn't have a "counterfiet conversion".
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that statement.
You say "those who endure to the end are the ones who were truly saved". I have to ask you, what does this "endurance" entail?
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you're saying that "If I endure, I will be saved and that my salvation is a reward for my endurance, since those 'Christians' who, for whatever reason, do not endure, were running the race in vain all the time".
Jesus describes a person's salvation as a "re-birth", as a "born again" experience. That means that it happens at a particular point in time and then the Christian life proceeds from that moment on. You're saying that the test of whether or not any particular person actually recieved salvation at that "re-birth moment" is his/her ability to "endure" until the end, and that smacks of legalism...after all, it's not our ability to do anything that brings us to salvation, and the way I see it, it's not our abilty (or inability) to do anything that keeps us sealed in the Holy Spirit.
ALL of our sins are forgiven when we have trusted Christ to be our Lord and Saviour. Past, present and future. Blasphemy is a sin, but if you've been born again, it's forgiven. Unbelief is a sin, but if you've been born again, it's forgiven.
The question is not "Was my conversion counterfeit (and how can I ever find out)?" but "Was I sincere when I gave my heart to Jesus? Have I really been trusting Him and do I really trust Him now?"
People have a legitimate beef with the idea that a person who has done something heinous after years of being a Christian will not lose his/her salvation and will still go to heaven when they die. But what we have to remember is that all of us will be purified, refined and sanctified at the moment we cross from this life into the next (a process that was begun at the moment of salvation but is not completed until we pass away). We'll be washed clean, as white as snow at that moment and all the selfish ambition, sinful thoughts and actions, and everything else we struggled with in life will be completely wiped away, so that who we are in the Kingdom of Heaven will be who we were meant to be before the advent of sin.
I know this is not a source of contention between us, and perhaps I have wandered away from the original debate, but I guess what I mean to say is that this process of sanctification was initiated by God, it is performed by God and it will be completed by God, regardless of what we do or do not do...it is Jesus Christ who is both the author AND the finisher (perfecter) of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
To bring it down to a personal level...I accepted Christ at the age of 16 and was baptized that same year. 8 years later, after a series of difficulties which culminated in a divorce from my first wife and her taking my 6-month old daughter (who, over 18 years later I still have not seen), I lost my faith. For 16 years I wavered from agnosticism to atheism, and I said some terrible things about religion in those days (I can remember posting on the RS.com boards once that I believed Christianity would die one day).
In my mind I became convinced that there was no God, or that the God of the Bible was either not enough or too much.
But do you know what? Periodically throughout those years I would feel something tugging me back towards faith in God. I resisted it and continued doing things my own way.
Then, in late March 2002, I realized that the years I spent in fellowship with the Lord were "the good old days" and that the 16 years I'd resisted Him had brought me nothing but despair, chaos, confusion and shattered hopes. I knew then what it was like to be lost without the Lord, and I fell on my face before Him and begged Him to take me back. But it never was a matter of Him taking me back, because He'd never left me. He'd let me wander all those years to teach me a lesson, something about the importance of relying on Him for all things, and something that my early Christian years had lacked. I am a much stronger Christian in the last 2 years than I was in the first 8 years of my Christian walk, but I have no doubt that I was a Christian even in the years between, when I was denying the faith.
If I had died during those years I have no doubt I would have gone to heaven, because the Holy Spirit was dwelling within me as a result of my salvation at the age of 16, EVEN THOUGH I did my best to quench it.
And I vividly remember being in a car crash during those "lost years" that could very well have been fatal...indeed, during the few seconds when the car was spinning out of control and I KNEW that I was going to die...I called out to God. The same God who I had questioned and blasphemed, whose name I had used in vain, who I doubted and ignored...when it came down to the point where it REALLY mattered, the point of death... I called out to God.
Who knows to whom (Whom) a person will reach out to in the moment the mortal coil is severed? Here's what I believe: at that moment there is NOONE but Jesus Christ to reach out to, whether conscious in the last moment before the brain shuts down or in that transitional moment before all moments blend into timeless eternity. Someone who has, at any point in their life, accepted Jesus Christ as Lord is going to, at that moment, realize that they had no reason to doubt, that they were wrong to deny and that He never stopped loving them throughout it all.
continued
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Jul 27, 2004 10:21:52 GMT -5
But alas, I have drifted off once again. You must excuse me.
Allow me to address a couple of other points you made, even at the risk of this post being so ling-winded as to deter even the most tenacious reader from completing it...
it is my belief also that Judas was never saved in the first place
Judas did not have the option to be "saved" because he killed himself before the New Covenant was in place. Christ had not yet completed the work of redemption on the cross, the sacrifice had not yet been made, He had not yet risen from the grave... Who knows what Judas might have done had he lived to witness the risen Christ, had Satan not entered into him with the end result being his death before Jesus' finishing work...
I'll leave it at that, even though it means not discussing the serious question of "what about everyone ELSE who died before the New Covenant?"
Perhaps that is a discussion for another time.
In other words, we have a choice to abandon our faith and walk away from it rejecting it in an irrevocable manner. Lucifer fell from heaven.
First of all, Lucifer was an angel. Salvation is and never was an issue for angels. So I fail to see how anything that happened to Lucifer can be used as an analogy for what will happen to Christians who "walk away from their faith".
But more importantly, I'd like to know how a person can choose to abandon/walk away from faith IN AN IRREVOCABLE MANNER. At what point does the choice become IRREVOCABLE? To say that such a thing is possible is to say that there is a sin that is unforgiveable, and we know that is not the case (notwithstanding the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is something that most scholars believe was only an issue to those in Christ's day who, though being eye-witnesses to them, attributed His miracles and works to demons).
So yes, of course we have a choice to abandon our faith. But God will never choose to abandon us, even if we make such a choice. He loved us while we were sinners, before we came to Him as well as after we have come to Him. The grace He gives us is a covering that our choices, decisions and actions cannot remove.
2 books I would suggest. The first, What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey, is one of the greatest books on Christian living that I have ever read and I reccomend it HIGHLY to anyone and everyone regardless of their interest (or lack thereof) in the topic at hand. The other, which is also a very good thorough treatise on the subject, is In The Grip of Grace by Max Lucado.
I didn't agree with the way that Charles Stanley danced around Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, especially the part where he completely forgot to mention verses 7 and 8 from Chapter 6, mainly verse 8
I don't think Stanley "danced around" those chapters at all. I thought he made his point succinctly and then moved on. He devoted an entire chapter to each of them, after all.
As for verses 7 & 8: "Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."
I don't see this as neccesarilly being symbolic of salvation so much as what we do with our lives after salvation and God's response to it. When the writer speaks of the land being burned, that, to me, symbolizes the withholding of blessing and premature death of the unproductive believer. There's no reason for me to think that verse 8 is in reference to salvation itself.
When Stanley talks about the pastor he met that decided he wanted to quit the pastorate, divorce his wife, run off with another woman and do what he wanted the rest of his life, I did not believe and still don't believe that that man is saved.
Come on, now. How can you say such a thing? You don't know what's in that pastor's heart. You don't know his reasons for doing what he did. You don't know anything about his initial born again experience. How can you insist he's not saved when it could very well be that God is allowing him to do this thing for a specific purpose that will bring glory to His name and at some point in time will use it to strengthen this pastor's faith, when and if he returns to God?
You say he was never saved in the first place...well, that's a harsh judgement. He was never saved because he sinned after he accepted the Lord as Saviour? God help us ALL, then. None of us are saved, by that logic.
"No good tree produces bad fruit. And no bad tree produces good fruit." Indeed, this is true. But it is dangerous to take this analogy and apply it to salvation. Perhaps a reading of Luke 6 will place this passage in context...
It is my opinion that those who have "tasted of the Heavenly Gift and the powers of the coming age" will never fall away
They'll never fall away, but it won't be because of anything they've done that's enabled them to endure. It will be because they are adopted sons and daughters in the Family of God. Their Father is one who will not hesitate to discipline them for transgressions, but He will NEVER disown them.
I anticipate and look forward to your response, and I apologize for the rambling aspects and length of this post.
Peace and grace to you...
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Post by melon1 on Jul 27, 2004 14:05:40 GMT -5
Wow, JACKory, a thoughtful post. I don't know where to start. I wish I had the time right now, but I will get to it soon, hopefully tonight.
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Post by melon1 on Jul 27, 2004 18:30:53 GMT -5
JAC, Hmmm, where to start? I guess I'll start with this: The question is not "Was my conversion counterfeit (and how can I ever find out)?" but "Was I sincere when I gave my heart to Jesus? Have I really been trusting Him and do I really trust Him now?" Those two are exactly the same thing, JAC. That's what I meant by "counterfeit". If it's just a traditional thing where you're going through the motions and not authentic, it's not sincere and therefore "counterfeit". We'll be washed clean, as white as snow at that moment and all the selfish ambition, sinful thoughts and actions, and everything else we struggled with in life will be completely wiped away, so that who we are in the Kingdom of Heaven will be who we were meant to be before the advent of sin. That almost tickles my ears which brings up red flags everywhere JAC. The truth is beautiful and glorious, yes. But it's also disturbing. When you say that "everything else we struggled with will be completely wiped away" it makes me wonder,"What about the things we don't wish with our hearts to be wiped away." I let my friend borrow Mere Christianity so its not available at the moment but Lewis talks in the "Sexual Morality" chapter of a young man praying for chastity while in his heart he was actually saying,"But don't give it to me just yet." While I agree totally that it's not our efforts that save us(indeed that IS legalism), i.e. our own ability to overcome temptation and live righteously, we will be judged according to what WE have done. Now, how can it be all of HIM and none of US and our actions still have something to do with it? One word: LET. It's all about LETting God love you. ALLOWING God to love you. God's will in our lives depends on our will. He will not violate our will. So He is actually not able to sanctify, purify, or justify you unless you LET Him. Acceptance or Rejection is what we will be judged by in the end. So in other words, of course it's not you that sanctifies or purifies yourself. He does it all. But you have to LET Him do it. Do you think that if Moses didn't come along and LET God work through him, God would have left his people in Egypt? No. He would have risen up somebody else. History is HIS STORY. It's about Him. It's not about you and me. And furthermore, "The way of the transgressor is hard." And "my burden is light and my yoke is easy." Judas did not have the option to be "saved" because he killed himself before the New Covenant was in place. Good point, but if you'll remember: when the disciples came back to Jesus after casting out demons Jesus told them something like this: "Don't marvel that the demons submit to you but rather that your names are written in the Lambs Book of Life." Jesus also told his disciples that His words had made them clean. So in summing up this portion of my response, I honestly don't know if it was possible to be "saved" before the crucifixion.  I'd like to know how a person can choose to abandon/walk away from faith IN AN IRREVOCABLE MANNER. At what point does the choice become IRREVOCABLE? I have to say that over further contemplation about what I wrote there, I believe the only way it can be "irrevocable" is if it is continued all the way until physical death. And there is no way to tell what is in a man's heart as to guess what his heart will say when facing death, even the man I mentioned that ran off with another woman. Should he cry out at the last minute, he would be saved. "For those who endure to the end shall be saved." Continued in next post |
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Post by stratman19 on Jul 27, 2004 18:53:48 GMT -5
Post deleted by Strat19.
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Post by Meursault on Jul 27, 2004 18:57:07 GMT -5
Ah your a great guy without god Stratman, don't let the crazies get to ya.  |
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Post by melon1 on Jul 27, 2004 19:09:09 GMT -5
2 books I would suggest. The first, What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey, is one of the greatest books on Christian living that I have ever read and I reccomend it HIGHLY to anyone and everyone regardless of their interest (or lack thereof) in the topic at hand. The other, which is also a very good thorough treatise on the subject, is In The Grip of Grace by Max Lucado.
I've read What's So Amazing About Grace? You're right. Excellent book. I've glanced at In the Grip of Grace while I was in line at Brownsville back during the summer when their revival was at its peak. I don't remember much of what I read of that but maybe I'll give it another look.
How can you insist he's not saved when it could very well be that God is allowing him to do this thing for a specific purpose that will bring glory to His name and at some point in time will use it to strengthen this pastor's faith, when and if he returns to God?
You are right to correct me on that one, but it was a reaction to the "once saved, always saved" pet doctrine that produces that kind of fruit. It actually angers me a bit. I hope, however, that this anger that I speak of is a righteous anger. My second cousin and mentor, who I talked to today, says in his second book, WWMD(What Would Mohammed Do?): Islam: A Mirror of the Bible Belt, "Many times families cling to a pet doctrine called "once saved, always saved" in hopes that no matter how evil their loved one becomes, he'll go to Heaven when he dies, all because he prayed the prayer one day. It's a terrible, tragic deception with a neverending, most horrible consequence. The 'Sinner's Prayer' is nothing but words unless there is a heart change." Remember when Jesus said,"Not all that say,'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to me on that day,'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers'." ?
Their Father is one who will not hesitate to discipline them for transgressions, but He will NEVER disown them.
Then what do you do with scriptures like this?: 2 Timothy 2:12 - If we endure we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us.
I also want to know what you think of this passage from 2 Peter Chapter 2:
"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end then they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and 'a sow that is washed goes back to its wallowing in the mud'."
Like I said earlier, I talked with Bob McLeod today and I told him that I posted something from one of his books on a message board concerning "once saved, always saved." He said,"Here's a theology buster for you: John 15:16: ' I chose you. You didn't choose Me.' If He's chosen you, how's He gonna UNchoose you."
So realize, JAC, I'm not trying to win a debate here. I honestly have questions about your viewpoint. I don't have the kind of mood day in and day out that is upbeat and happy. I don't think that means I'm not filled with the spirit. I just have a more depressed mood than the average person. But on the other hand you may be in a mood most of the time that would seem euphorical to me so I'm open to anything you have to say. I'm not trying to "win" an argument. As should be obvious from all of my response, I'm very open to the Eternal Security doctrine, just not the super-ticklish version of it. But whoever thinks they have ALL of the truth is the one in the biggest trouble if you ask me. The only One with ALL the TRUTH is Jesus. The way I see it is "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." So grace and peace to you as well, brother.
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Post by melon1 on Jul 27, 2004 19:15:21 GMT -5
God bless you, Stratman. You don't have to understand it all as it's impossible to understand the mind of God. I don't know everything. I don't even know much at all. But I do know this: if you look at that cross, you will not be able to say,"You don't love me."
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Post by melon1 on Jul 27, 2004 19:30:57 GMT -5
By the end of her talk, we prayed, and I asked Christ into my heart. At the time, I was sincere, and honest. But I've spent most of my life struggling to come to terms with something greater than myself, and just when I think I can get to a place where I can understand it all, I lose it. So, what does that make me?
If you were sincere, Stratman, it is my belief that "he that began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." I honestly have a feeling inside that's telling me you were "chosen before the foundation of the earth to be holy and blameless in His sight." God answers prayers and it is my belief that your friends' and family's prayers are soon going to be answered. You'll always have me and JACKory to correspond with and ask questions.
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Post by stratman19 on Jul 27, 2004 20:27:41 GMT -5
I'm sorry guys, I don't think I can continue with this conversation. Thanks Melon, for your thoughts. Ah your a great guy without god Stratman...Thanks Shane.  |
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Jul 28, 2004 13:15:42 GMT -5
God bless you, Stratman. You don't have to understand it all as it's impossible to understand the mind of God. I don't know everything. I don't even know much at all. But I do know this: if you look at that cross, you will not be able to say,"You don't love me."Amen to that! stratman, thank you for sharing that personal story. You say, "But I've spent most of my life struggling to come to terms with something greater than myself, and just when I think I can get to a place where I can understand it all, I lose it. So, what does that make me?" I'd say it makes you a seeker. You acknowledge that there's "something greater than yourself" and you're trying to understand it. I think that's great, and I'd also like to think that it's because you have a seed of faith buried in that heart of yours. But I won't presume to say that because, really, who am I to say that? It's just my hope...so hopefully no offense is taken. What I'd REALLY like to know, seeing as how the conversation has already effectively ended, is if you were able to sleep after you said that prayer... And finally...this thing that's greater than yourself...Here's my take: "It" cannot be understood, because "It" is just too awesome for the human mind to comprehend. I personally believe that the Bible is our textbook for coming to know "It" (these Scriptures have several different names for "It", including YHWH, Jehovah, Adonai, El Shaddai and Our Heavenly Father, among others)...but it's your choice to believe it or not... |
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Jul 28, 2004 13:17:39 GMT -5
Melon, I appreciate the thought you've put into your response and the time and effort you've invested in this discussion. Likely we are not going to come to a point where we agree 100% with each other, as I get the impression that you are probably an Armenian while I lean more towards Calvinism. Nevertheless, I am happy to continue this debate in hopes that both of us might derive food-for-thought from it and that our faith might be strengthened.
To respond to a few statements you made:
While I agree totally that it's not our efforts that save us(indeed that IS legalism), i.e. our own ability to overcome temptation and live righteously, we will be judged according to what WE have done.
No. We will NOT be judged according to what we have done. We, as believers who have trusted in Christ for salvation, will be judged according to what HE has done, for His righteousness has been imputed to us (the NIV translation uses the word "credited")...PLEASE read Romans chapter 4...and Isaiah describes it as a "robe of righteousness" that we are given. When God's children stand before Him on judgement day, He sees the righteousness of His Son and "remembers our sins no more" ( "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake an remembers your sins no more."---Isa 43:25).
None of the good deeds or good works that we've done will make a difference when we are judged ( though they will most certainly play a part in the rewards [or lack thereof] that we recieve in Heaven). They can't and don't make up for the sin that continues to reside in our members.
Of course we will all be judged. And some of us will be judged more than once: Once during the great judgment on the Day of the Lord, then again before the judgment seat of Christ. The first judgment has to do with our salvation, while the second has to do with rewards in Heaven. NOONE will stand on his own merits in the great judgement. The wrath of God will be poured out upon all who have rejected the salvation bought and paid for by the blood of His only begotten Son, regardless of works. Those who have not rejected but have trusted in Christ for salvation will find themselves before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10 and note that Paul is speaking only to Christians at this point when he says "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ") where we will indeed be recompensed for all we have done "while in the body".
continued next post
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