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Post by Mary on May 17, 2004 14:42:19 GMT -5
Thanks so much for the Siouxsie recs, maarts! I think I may have heard Through the Looking Glass before - my ex once played a Siouxsie CD that was full of covers for me in his car. I remember a cover of Strange Fruit that was utterly bone-chilling - is that the same CD? If so, I'd definitely like to acquire that!!
and bowiglou, it's great to have you around, even if you are going to be slandering nick cave by comparing him to that fraud, jimbo morrison... !!
Cheers,
M
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Post by Kensterberg on May 17, 2004 14:59:37 GMT -5
I've got to agree with Bowiglou here on something ... am I the only one who noticed that Mr. Cave's singing style is patterned almost entirely on Mr. Morrison's ... and that he has that same annoying baritone voice (I swear, only Julian Cope should be allowed to sing rock and roll as a baritone) ... or that Cave's lyrical concerns are pretty much what Morrison's would've been if Jimbo could have bothered to finish his undergrad degree and get a PhD in creative writing? I'm sorry Mary, Drum, and everyone else who loves Nick Cave, but not only does he leave me cold, the spectre of the Lizard King looms over his work like the shadow of ... well, a really bad, overrated songwriter! I'm not saying anything bad about Nick Cave, I'm perfectly content to leave him as a huge critical blind spot, but frankly, I'd rather listen to Radiohead than to Nick Cave.
Good to see Bowiglou here, too!
NP: Sheryl Crow, My Favorite Mistake (acoustic) (the girl needs to have her heart stomped on again, there's just no comparison between the stuff she did after her relationship with Clapton fell apart and the mindless crap she's been churning out for the last couple of years)
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Post by bowiglou on May 17, 2004 17:44:11 GMT -5
;D......oh man, these faces are funsy-wunsy..anyway, I wait with baited breath Mary's retort to Herr Holzman...however, where he severely errs is the quality of Jim's baritone was a sheer novelty and welcome relief circa 1967 to all the high-pitched vocalists.......remember ken..you gotta think context.......we now have the hindsight/insight of 37 years afterwards where we have all these very serious furrowed-brow wanna-be writers in rock...besides Dylan, Morrison did take his writing seriously......and don't you dare use the lazy default of: "oh yeah, Bowiglou...'cmon cmon touch me babe" is real weighty stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!" Love and thrilled to be back amongst you all...bowiglou morrison  |
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Post by maarts on May 17, 2004 18:24:53 GMT -5
I remember a cover of Strange Fruit that was utterly bone-chilling - is that the same CD?That is the one, Mary. It was always a bit of an odd duck in Siouxsie's output but very entertaining at least. And Ken- please don't stock yuor tongue too hard in your cheek, for it might protrude shortly right through it 
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achn2b
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Post by achn2b on May 17, 2004 18:42:58 GMT -5
what about ian mcculloch? and yes, unfortunately, he does have a bit of a doors fixation.  |
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ClubberLang
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Post by ClubberLang on May 17, 2004 18:47:43 GMT -5
.....and don't you dare use the lazy default of: "oh yeah, Bowiglou...'cmon cmon touch me babe" is real weighty stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!" Krieger wrote the lyrics to Touch Me. But in actuality, Robbie wanted the song to be called "Hit Me" which Jim thought was ridiculous. He decided to record the song anyway and change the main lyric. So Ken can't use that excuse.  |
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Post by Mary on May 17, 2004 19:05:57 GMT -5
I've got to agree with Bowiglou here on something ... am I the only one who noticed that Mr. Cave's singing style is patterned almost entirely on Mr. Morrison's ... and that he has that same annoying baritone voice (I swear, only Julian Cope should be allowed to sing rock and roll as a baritone) ... or that Cave's lyrical concerns are pretty much what Morrison's would've been if Jimbo could have bothered to finish his undergrad degree and get a PhD in creative writing? I'm sorry Mary, Drum, and everyone else who loves Nick Cave, but not only does he leave me cold, the spectre of the Lizard King looms over his work like the shadow of ... well, a really bad, overrated songwriter! Gaaah. One minute. I have to collect myself. deep breath....OK, so, let's see: 1) Actually, I've never once seriously denied Jim Morrison's obvious influence (one among many, however) on Nick Cave. However, this doesn't in and of itself bother me, as the things about Jim Morrison I hate are his stylized over-the-topness, not the fact that he has a baritone or is influenced by blues singers. Jim Morrison has influenced a lot of folks in rock beyond just Nick Cave - Julian Cope for one, but also, as achnb notes, Ian McCulloch (whose baritone I adore precisely for its baritone qualities!), Iggy Pop, Eddie Vedder, Scott Weiland, and plenty more besides...including, incidentally, Johnette Napolitano, who obviously can't mimic Morrison's baritone, but takes a hell of a lot from his style, his phrasing, and his songwriting.... I like a lot of these folks. I'm perfectly willing to admit that some people have managed to take inspiration from sources I don't particular care for, and turn it in positive directions. The students eclipsing the teacher, etc etc. 2) The assertion, however, that Cave's singing style is "patterned almost entirely" on Morrison's is simply ludicrous. There are some songs in which the influence of Morrison is particularly strong - the one that immediately comes to mind is The Witness Song, with its The End-esque declamatory style. But Cave's influences range far and wide and depending on the song, different influences are apparent at different moments. There's also Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits, Scott Walker, and too many bluesmen to name. Nick sounds nothing like Jim Morrison on Watching Alice or Up Jumped the Devil or The Curse of Millhaven or Loom of the Land or Loverman or Lime-Tree Arbour or almost anything by The Birthday Party. You've managed to take a few stylistic tics that Nick admittedly shares with Jim Morrison and blown those up into the entire foundation for his vocal style - that's transparently false. 3) As for Cave's lyrical concerns being what "Morrison's would have been" had he received a better education - what, you mean Morrison was the first person in the history of music to be concerned with love, sin, death, and redemption?? This is perfectly ridiculous - these are the perennial themes not only of much country and blues, but of the canon of Western literature every since the advent of Christianity. Writing about sin and love hardly makes you a Jim Morrison acolyte. In fact, when it comes to Nick's immediate, lyrical inspirations, putting aside his more literary inspirations, Johnny Cash, Leonard Cohen, and Bob Dylan loom so enormously that Jim Morrison seems like a mere afterthought. 4) This brings up a final point. Morrison himself didn't just spring up sui generus from the earth's soil - he had his own influences, which he usually took to absurdly over-dramatized, stylized proportions, but they were there nonetheless, and by and large, they were bluesmen. So Nick Cave has also been heavily inspired by the Delta blues - which he's very upfront about - what you're hearing in Cave of Morrison isn't just a direct link to Morrison but also shared influences. Surely there's nothing objectionable in and of itself about taking inspiration from the blues - what matters is what you do with it. ...phew. You know, ultimately, I just don't share the intensity of Ken's malevolence toward Jim Morrison. I think Morrison is a perfectly ridiculous, absurdly overrated figure, but I'm not going to throw every singer with a baritone and a declamatory style into the dustbin because of the specter of Morrison. (with an inexplicable exception for Julian Cope... who is very direct and explicit about his admiration for Jim Morrison) The mere fact that someone borrows from Jim Morrison just isn't enough to damn them in my book. Cheers, M |
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ClubberLang
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Post by ClubberLang on May 17, 2004 19:12:02 GMT -5
I'm pretty naive in the world of Nick cave's music. However, I think i'm interested after reading all your posts. From what yuou guys know about me would i like the music? If so, what album should i start off with?
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Post by luke on May 17, 2004 19:20:12 GMT -5
Clubber, man, I don't really see it happening. But just maybe; sure there are more than enough here to get you started.
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Post by Kensterberg on May 17, 2004 19:22:42 GMT -5
I just love it when Mary gets a full head of steam on a subject. Nothing else like it.  I happen to have a couple of Nick Cave songs in my iPod, and one of them happened to have played just before I wrote that post today, and it hit me how much Cave sounds like Morrison. His voice is awfully similar. And for me, that voice is one of the things that bugs me about Jimbo. With very few exceptions (Cope, Vedder), I really don't care for rock baritones. (My dad has a baritone voice, and for some reason hearing baritones sing rock songs always conjures up the image of my dad singing). Similarly, I find Cave's choice in subject matter and lyrics to be right up Jim's alley, albeit at a higher level of execution. There are lots of things about Cave's output that have left me cold, but today it was that obvious vocal simularity (and lyrical preoccupations) that did him in for me. Now I'm not even suggesting that Cave is anywhere near as annoying or worthless as Morrison, but I've found that I can't listen to Nick w/o thinking of Jim, an experience I don't have when I listen to Julian Cope or Ian McC., and certainly not when I hear Eddie Vedder. But mainly, I wanted to respond to biglou's Morrison baiting, and get a rise out of Mary. And it might even sell a few Nick Cave albums! |
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ClubberLang
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Post by ClubberLang on May 17, 2004 19:32:15 GMT -5
Clubber, man, I don't really see it happening. But just maybe; sure there are more than enough here to get you started. I'm guessing that Nick Cave's songs are pretty depressing which is always appealing to me but maybe you're right Luke. BTW, who are you? |
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ClubberLang
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think for yourself, question authority
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Post by ClubberLang on May 17, 2004 19:43:43 GMT -5
Aaahh...so Luke is Ekul.
Not sure why you guys don't think I'd Nick Cave. Must be cause I'm such a huge Radiohead fan.
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Post by luke on May 17, 2004 20:00:27 GMT -5
Yeah, Clubber...I registered on the site as ekul, but they wouldn't send a password to my AOL address, so I had to join in again with a different user name and have it sent to my university address. Which sucks, because now my university address is gonna be flooded with spam...
Man, I really want that new Morrissey. Might pick up that GQ he's in, too.
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Post by Mary on May 18, 2004 2:51:18 GMT -5
Man this is exactly why it's a shame that the old rs.com posts are probably all deleted. I had specifically saved the all-important post # where I did a massive, detailed rundown of the various Nick Cave albums which I'd recommend as potential starters. So here's a seriously condensed version for Clubber, should he be interested... Let Love In - This is my all-time favorite Bad Seeds album, and it's a good mix of Nick's various styles for neophytes. You've got the cacophonic raging stuff like Loverman and Thirsty Dog, the spooky, spine-chilling stuff like Red Right Hand and Do You Love Me? (Part 2), the sad heartbroken ballads like Nobody's Baby Now and Ain't Gonna Rain Anymore... in my opinion it's also the Bad Seeds in absolute top form, and the rare Bad Seeds album where every song is fabulous. Tender Prey - an earlier work that features my all-time favorite song as the leadoff - The Mercy Seat - Nick's insane journey into the mind of a condemned criminal as he sits on the electric chair and ponders life, death, punishment, guilt, and sin. Fucking harrowing. So great that Johnny Cash himself covered it. Nothing else is quite up to that standard, but then, it's the best damn song ever so how could anything be? There's still some fine work, but it's a lot less polished and accessible than later albums. Up Jumped the Devil is another personal favorite of mine, its rollicking barroom style and whiskey-addled Tom Waits-esque vocals, alongside a gleefully sinful lyric. ("My blood was blacker than the chambers of a dead nun's heart") The Good Son - quieter and more accessible. A very pretty album. Until The Boatman's Call, this was Nick at his most reserved, though it still rocks at times. Its most memorable moment is the gorgeous back-to-back pairing of The Weeping Song and The Ship Song right in the middle of the album - two of Nick's most timeless classics, featuring gorgeous melodies, the latter in particular is lush romanticism through and through. Henry's Dream - a curious album, insofar as serious Nick Cave fans tend to hate it, or at least think it's his least interesting work, whereas folks who don't ordinarily dig Nick Cave tend to love it. I can't seriously recommend it as one of his better works, but I put it here because I'm aware of how many of my friends with less... experimental... taste in music loved it on the first hearing and never really cared for anything else I played them by Nick. It's the closest the Bad Seeds ever came to sounding like an ordinary rock and roll band - conventional song structures, memorable choruses, clear and clean production. You might actually really dig it, Clubber - it leads off with an apocalyptic rave-up called Papa Won't Leave You, Henry that has become a raging staple of Bad Seeds concerts, and also features one of Nick's most memorable love songs (Straight to You, though personally I prefer the gloomier, sadder, more contemplative Loom of the Land, also on the album). These are the four albums I'd recommend as a starting place to someone who's not at all familiar with Nick. They aren't necessarily the 4 best Nick Cave albums - there's stuff like From Her to Eternity and Your Funeral...My Trial to contend with. But unless you've already got extremely offbeat taste in music, you're unlikely to care for these albums right off the bat. The former in particular is often atonal, mercilessly cacophonic, and quite experimental. Bah, so much for the "condensed" Bad Seeds recommendations. I should know better than to think I could possibly maintain brevity when I'm talking about Mr. Cave! ...and now I'm expecting Doc Drum to show up at any minute to try to convince Clubber to buy The Boatman's Call!  Cheers, M |
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Post by Dr. Drum on May 18, 2004 6:48:02 GMT -5
Clubber, The Boatman's Call, man – the greatest album of 1997 (OK Computer included) and the pinnacle of Nick Cave's considerable musical achievements. Buy it and you'll see what I mean, if you don't fall in love with it, I'll eat my copy of Kid A!
No, seriously, TBC is a Great album and my personal Cave favourite, but I'm going to play against type here for a second and put a word in for another album Mary covered, Henry's Dream. Now, serious Nick Cave fans may not really dig this album but then, I'm a serious Nick Cave fan and I've always thought it holds up pretty well. True, it's Cave and the Bad Seeds consciously applying big production values and streamlining their aesthetic for mass consumption. (Love the cover art allusion to this.)
Still, the record's concessions are not craven. The Bad Seeds particular brand of noise still sounds infernal, if cleanly recorded, and Cave maintains enough edge to keep things interesting. (In fact, I have to say, if he could get back a little of the hunger and sense of open possibility, circa 2004, that's still there on this record, it would be a HUGE step in the right direction.) Hard to argue, too with songs like "Straight to You" (among the top half-dozen songs he's ever written, IMO), "Loom of the Land" or "Jack the Ripper". Not a bad track on the record, by my reckoning. Might be a "safe" choice but it might also be a good starter for you, Clubber, and for anyone else who's curious about Cave and the Bad Seeds.
BTW Mary, tour de force reply to Ken on Cave vs. Jimbo. Honestly, while I won't out-and-out deny the possibility of a Morrison influence on Cave, I think it could also be that all Ken is hearing are two singers who happen to have been born with similar pipes and therefore approach the act of singing in occasionally similar ways. I mean, the Delta bluesmen, Elvis, Dylan, Weill, Leonard Cohen, Iggy Pop – you can find specific instances in song of Cave's fascination with these artists. He's also spoken about their influence. I can't recall ever having seen him talk about Morrison and I don't hear any really enduring Doors influence in the music.
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