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Post by Galactus on Feb 10, 2006 13:53:03 GMT -5
Cowboys and ninjas didn't really exist either...I'm pretty sad about that...
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Post by Kensterberg on Feb 10, 2006 13:56:29 GMT -5
Since this is my board, after all, I'm gonna beat this dead horse just a bit longer.
Melon, I think that there is a fundemental difference in the way you and I see the world (and I think that Rocky shares at least a part of my perspective, as do several others here, but I'm just speaking for myself right now). If I may, it appears to me that you believe in an absolute truth, that there is a right and wrong way for society to be structured and for people to live. Obviously then, a society that does not conform to this idealization is inherently flawed and imperfect. Since any deviation from God's law is to be avoided, it doesn't really matter if we're talking about slavery or swearing on the radio, both are equally problematic if we are trying to create "The City of God." Since you see American society as moving further away from God's word (which I think is a debatable point, but one I'm not going into right now), we are on a downward spiral into sin and damnation.
I, on the other hand, do not see the world in this fashion. I hold American society only up to its own ideals, our fundamental founding myths, our own Noble Lie, as it were. The most central of these is the notion that all men are created equal, and that all men have certain rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. For me, American society "improves" to the extent that its citizen's rights are better protected and more freely exercised. Also, I (like the Declaration of Independence) cannot know what will make another person truly happy. Therefore, I don't think it is the role of our government, or our society in general, to dictate how people are to pursue their happiness. To the extent that we, as individuals, have more freedom to pursue what we (hope?) think will make us happy, American society is improved. Rather than emphasizing adherence to God's law, I emphasize the individual freedom to choose what constitutes the best life for that person. Therefore, I see the role of American government as primarily that of providing a framework whereby individual rights are secured, and which maximizes individual freedoms.
This relativistic perspective on "the good life" is of course the polar opposite of your view of positive truth, which can only be found through the Bible and adherence to (your take on) Christian principles. So from my perspective, America is definitely a better place today than it was a hundred years ago. More people have more freedom, and are better able to choose their path to happiness. Is it perfect? Oh hell no! Is it better than other options? Sure looks that way, IMHO. What you see as the spiraling road to hell, I see as the proverbial promised land -- where everyone is free to pursue their own bliss, and accepting of the choices of others.
So this is a discussion which can only end with us agreeing to disagree. You'll never be able to convince me that your path is the Absolute Truth, and Best Life for all society, and I'll (likely) never be able to convince you that tolerance of other's choices and individual freedom are the hallmarks of a "good" American society, not adherence to any particular ethical or religious teaching.
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Post by Kensterberg on Feb 10, 2006 13:58:05 GMT -5
The world isn't getting worse, it may getting further away from the repression of the 50's when everyone likes to pretend were the golden days and nothing bad ever happened. The difference was it was all swept under the rug and ignored. Personally I think all this stuff should be upfront so we can deal with it...the problem is that there are alot of people who don't want to deal with it. They want to sweep it back under the rug where they can prentend it doesn't exist. Look at world history melon, this has always been a pretty fucked up place. The Ward & June Cleaver era never happened. Here, here. Nicely said, my little green friend.  |
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Post by phil on Feb 10, 2006 14:00:58 GMT -5
But the soul !! What about the little children's soul ??
How to save people from themselves
and from this "downward spiral" into HELL !!
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Post by Thorngrub on Feb 10, 2006 14:04:59 GMT -5
"Your willful blindness to the fact that young teens are engaging in oral sex and doing drugs probably, no joke, 100 times more than 50 years ago, doesn't seem to phase you. "
Oh my lord god in heaven above. Seriously. . . I was taken aback Melon that you construed my positivistic outlook as "sad", I mean, wtf? ? ?
Let me just say for the record that oral sex rocks. It is one of the greatest things in creation m'k. For you to dismiss all the other horrible things going on right now in the world, the wars, rapes, pillaging, etc, and to focus on something not only so trivial by contrast as teen oral sex but to point it out as an example of what you find wrong. . . . *words fail* . . . . yeah my mind is reeling right now too man . . .
Your primary concerns, as you listed them, are
rap music
F-words
porno mags
MTV
Jerry Springer
etc.
? ! ? !? !? ! ? ! ? ! ? !? ? !? ? ! ? ? !
\
dude.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Post by Kensterberg on Feb 10, 2006 14:06:38 GMT -5
Oh yeah, since this discussion is fundementally about a (very ordinary, but for some reason very popular) Rolling Stones single, IMHO it is perfectly acceptable for this discussion to continue on this board. There's no need to take it to CE unless you guys just spontaneously want to.
This whole thing reminds me of when I saw Blazing Saddles as a grade schooler back in the early seventies. My dad just loved this film (and he was a theater manager), and thought I'd like it too. However, he and my mom were a little concerned about the "foul" language used in the film. After much thought, they decided that I was bright enough to know the difference between appropriate and inappropriate language, and that I'd likely enjoy the film. So my (very devout Christian) parents let me watch Blazing Saddles. When my dad was driving me home after the film, he asked if the language had bothered me or anything (in my house, "damn" was the harshest word ever used, and only in extreme situations: we didn't even say "shit" at home). Much to his surprise, I told him "That was nothing, I hear worse than that every day on the playground." And that was the last time my parents worried about my exposure to foul language as a corrupting influence. To this day, I still respect their standards for appropriate language in their presence.
Simply hearing Jagger sing a particular line isn't gonna corrupt the "yutes" of America. And if it were going to, it happened a long time ago, and it's far too late to close that door now.
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Post by Thorngrub on Feb 10, 2006 14:09:27 GMT -5
Melon have you ever been full & truly blown? Ever felt what it was like to have all your built up tensions lovingly worked off into someone's eagerly devoted, practiced mouth? You oughta try it out sometime. . . it'll do ya loads of good.
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Post by Galactus on Feb 10, 2006 14:16:40 GMT -5
I just don't see why hearing Jagger sing "you'd make a dead man come" should effect anyone's, children or otherwise, day in the least. The "cock" line in Rough Justice is more understandable but even that was till used in a fowl context (get it?) and could easily be explained away without ever mentioning sex.
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Post by phil on Feb 10, 2006 14:22:03 GMT -5
Melon longs for an idyllic time where gays knew better
(for fear or imprisonment or worse maybe ?)
and kept their "abomination" to themselves
marrying and having children, living a lifelong lie ...
Abortions were only available for the wealthy and the well-connected,
the poors having to content themselves with a dirty kitchen table
and a rusty coat-hanger ...
Alcool prohibition was in full swing ...
To the joy of the Puritains, bootleggers and Canadians !
Drugs were used only by poor blacks
so nobody gave a fuck about that !
Sex outside marriage and not intended for procreation only was forbidden,
even thinking about IT was a serious sin ...
Yep ! Those were the "Good Ol'Days" !!
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Post by Kensterberg on Feb 10, 2006 14:23:27 GMT -5
" Your willful blindness to the fact that young teens are engaging in oral sex and doing drugs probably, no joke, 100 times more than 50 years ago, doesn't seem to phase you. " Oh my lord god in heaven above. Seriously. . . I was taken aback Melon that you construed my positivistic outlook as "sad", I mean, wtf? ? ? Let me just say for the record that oral sex rocks. It is one of the greatest things in creation m'k. For you to dismiss all the other horrible things going on right now in the world, the wars, rapes, pillaging, etc, and to focus on something not only so trivial by contrast as teen oral sex but to point it out as an example of what you find wrong. . . . *words fail* . . . . yeah my mind is reeling right now too man . . . Your primary concerns, as you listed them, are rap music F-words porno mags MTV Jerry Springer etc. ? ! ? !? !? ! ? ! ? ! ? !? ? !? ? ! ? ? ! \ dude.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I'm with Thorny on this, too. Oral sex is a great thing. If (and this is a big IF) it has in fact increased in frequency in the recent past, well, I think that's just people wising up to a good thing. Now the fact that anal intercourse (among heterosexuals) has dramatically increased in the past decade has legitimate health implications. I can understand people being concerned about this. Practicing anal sex in order to avoid pregnancy is a shitty form of birth control (pardon the pun), and one that carries lots of risks of its own. We should look at educating kids so that they know that this isn't a "safe alternative" to vaginal intercourse. But I don't think that would go over so well with the religious types. Off to lunch now ... ciao |
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Post by Thorngrub on Feb 10, 2006 14:24:21 GMT -5
I just don't see why hearing Jagger sing "you'd make a dead man come" should effect anyone's, children or otherwise, day in the least. The "cock" line in Rough Justice is more understandable but even that was till used in a fowl context (get it?) and could easily be explained away without ever mentioning sex. Yeah, furthermore the line "You'd make a dead man come" is actually a biblical reference to the End Times, when the Dead shall Rise and be Swept up to Heaven. And here you were thinking otherwise Melon .. .*4 shame*, get yer mind outta the gutter willya |
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Post by Thorngrub on Feb 10, 2006 14:25:32 GMT -5
Melon longs for an idyllic time where gays knew better (for fear or imprisonment or worse maybe ?) and kept their "abomination" to themselves marrying and having children, living a lifelong lie ... Abortions were only available for the wealthy and the well-connected, the poors having to content themselves with a dirty kitchen table and a rusty coat-hanger ... Alcool prohibition was in full swing ... To the joy of the Puritains, bootleggers and Canadians ! Drugs were used only by poor blacks so nobody gave a fuck about that ! Sex outside marriage and not intended for procreation only was forbidden, even thinking about IT was a serious sin ... Yep ! Those were the "Good Ol'Days" !! beautiful |
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Post by Thorngrub on Feb 10, 2006 14:27:13 GMT -5
My best advice to you Melon is open your mind take a chill pill and go see Brokeback Mountain, pronto. Then open your heart to love ... its a force of nature.
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Post by Galactus on Feb 10, 2006 14:28:44 GMT -5
Would you rather kids were having oral sex or vaginal sex where shortly there after the girl disappears to "camp"?
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Post by phil on Feb 10, 2006 14:31:15 GMT -5
Practicing anal sex in order to avoid pregnancy
is a shitty form of birth control (pardon the pun),
LMAO !
Thanks Ken ... I needed the laugh real bad !!
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