The 50 Greatest Singles in Rock and Roll

[strat-0]

But wait - it was censored for the Superbowl, wasn't it? I didn't see it, actually, but I wish I'd caught Sly at the Grammys. That had to be classic!

Anyway, I agree with Rocky and Ken that they could have picked better tunes from their catalog. I'd put Start Me Up pretty low on the list.

Melon, I think you were only using it as a convenient metaphor, but you do know the 'boiling frog' thing is an urban legend, right?

[phil]

HO ! And children's obesity in the U.S. is IMO
a much more dangerous problem for society
than a few "obscene" words sung during the SB ...

[phil]

But wait - it was censored for the Superbowl, wasn't it?

LMFAO !! That is so right !!

But see, it doesn't matter ...

Those words exist and that is where the problem lies.

Even the idea of sex(outside of the mariage/procreation equation of course!)
is dangerous to our "spiraling downward" society !!

[rockysigman]

I strongly dispute the implication that our society is on a "downward spiral", at least on a cultural level. I suppose it all depends on what you're using as your measuring stick. The way I see it, yes, we have more swearing and sexual language in pop culture now, but as opposed to 50 years ago, we no longer have institutional segregation, and opposed to 100 years ago women now have equal rights under the law. What is the best indication of the state of our culture? The amount of questionable material (and it's up for debate what that really means anyway) that is on the radio, or the ways in which we, as a society, treat our fellow human beings?

[Kensterberg]

I completely concur with Rocky. Anyone who says that society is worse off today than it was, say, fifty years ago is using a seriously warped ruler. We don't live in a perfect culture, but it is undeniable that there is less ethnic, racial, and sex based discrimination today. The fact that we can even have a public dialogue about the concept of "gay marriage," for example, shows how much more tolerant we have become, overall. We are much closer today to a society that fulfills our fundemental ideology, that all men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights, and that is a very good thing IMHO.

If the price of that is for some parents to have to explain why Mick Jagger is mumbling about "yeeeeew make a dead man come" ... well, that's not a huge cost, if you ask me.

I think there is a valid discussion that could be had about the overall corseness of American culture today, but my take is that this is the price we pay for a more generally open and egalitarian public (and private) space.

All that said, the Stones should've just played Jumpin' Jack Flash or Street Fighting Man instead.

[Galactus]

Melon, first for me to be making the ole two wrongs argument I'd have to consider it wrong. I agree with Frank, there are no bad words. When I was kid I thought "you make a dead man come" meant she made dead men get up and walk...the same you make a dog come when you call it's name. I have a four year old who asks alot of questions and I know what it's like when your kid asks a question you don't think she's old enough to know the answer to yet. I don't blame the source for these things becuase they're out there. If she didn't hear it on the superbowl she'd probably hear on TV the next day. I do monitor what she watches but not everything is within my control and I don't believe in hiding her from these things. You see, I don't mind being a parent. I don't mind explaining things to my daughter. I don't mind her asking questions...in fact I encourage it. If it's something I don't think she's old enough to understand I give her an answer that will satisfy a four year old without lying or really answering the question.
The excuse that kids will be harmed is bullshit, this is all about not offending the parents.

Also I agree with Rocky.

[phil]

The fact that we can even have a public dialogue about the concept of "gay marriage," for example, shows how much more tolerant we have become, overall.

Au contraire !! The fact that we talk openly about anything concerning gays
instead of treating or curing them of their disease
or, as Melon has already stated talking about them :

"Their "lifestyle" should be observed and analyzed
for the corroding of our minds into utter sickening depravity."

is further proof of our social "downward spiral" ...

[Thorngrub]

Let me chime in w/Rocky & Ken: I agree that things are no worse off today than they were in the past, in fact I'd tend to put my chips in w/the optimists and declare we are better off today than ever before.

So what to do w/this immense propensity for pessimistic assessments of the state of the world today?

Personally, I keep tending to think that it really is nothing but a side-effect, if you will, leaked off of a GROUP MENTALITY of world affairs. I really am inclined to believe that every liberal condemnation of man's inhumanity to man, and the apparantly increasingly complicated movements towards a perceived "world annihilation", are naught but refracted perceptions reflected off a group mentality as opposed to that which stems from the individual.

I.E, It is an all-too-easy trap for the individual to fall prey to this group-think mentality; a mentality which is unfortunately bolstered by the media in its quest to homogenize information or boil it down "inverted pyramid"-style as is the penchant of journalism, and I think that what this does is inadvertantly paint an abstracted depiction of global events and/or reality.

Sure all the horrors exploding from suicide bombers and soldiers combatting terrorists throughout the globe are very real; but that is not the point.

The point is that I believe everything might actually be "okay" its just that it doesn't seem that way when we pull back to view the Whole (as opposed to sticking w/our own limited view of our pocket of a colony which exist seperately from, yet connected to, the Whole).

I.e, "the Past" and this "Whole" go hand in hand; it is our own limited sphere of influence and environs that most matters, "the Present" and our own integral part of creation that is most "real" to us.

i.e,
We all gotta die someday, death is natural regardless of what form it takes, be it victimization of a terrorist attack, a fallen tree, a drunken driver, or what have you. All that these terrifying "world events" offer is a dizzying vista from which we may fare best by looking away from. Turn your perceptions INwards to our own local communities, and our families and friends and ourselves. Live our lives in the here and now. Make the most of it while we can.

[melon1]

That is about the saddest shit I've ever read. So much to respond to in so many ways, my head's about to explode. In fact, I can't even take it right now. I've seen enough for one day. The "we're better off now than 50 years ago" argument and especially thorn's assertion that "we are better off today than ever before" is so frustrating to the renewed mind that it's almost unspeakable. The prevalent, so deeply ingrained, deception that you guys are taking part in shouldn't bother me as much as it does, but I'm not as mature a Christian now as I will one day be. Your willful blindness to the fact that young teens are engaging in oral sex and doing drugs probably, no joke, 100 times more than 50 years ago, doesn't seem to phase you. The fact that there was institutional racism and sexism, which was on the way out, in your mind is FAR GREATER than there being hardly even a pocket in any remote backwoods town where innocence actually exists. A child is likely to be exposed to:

Rap music from the car passing by shouting MF every other word, porno mags, BET(enuff said there alone), MTV, Jerry Springer, hell, just about any damn thing on TVs that are in 99% of households in America. And I'm not sure even how many evangelical Christians such as myself share this viewpoint, but it is my belief that Satan himself is in Hollywood as often as any place in the world. You guys would like to think you're above brainwashera. In fact, I expect that's what you think of the overall subject of religion. But I'm convinced that a steady diet of media and music (and I share in about as much of it as you guys) has you all programmed to just about a T.

Nearly every time I step in a theatre, I see the programming process in the dialogue. I resist it rather easily because I see right through it, by God's grace. During the early 90s I started to see things happen before they really did. I don't mean to toot my own horn here but I noticed people changing their minds all around me about all kinds of beliefs they formerly had. How, I ask, how did that happen so fast and so easily? Is it because the views they formerly held were those of complete ignorance? No, I tell you that it was none other than the brilliant manipulation of the enemy through media, especially films.

When the "gays in the military" thing was introduced, and most people freaked out, I remember saying,"That's just the beginning. Before you know it they'll want legal marriage and then it will go further than that. Adoption? Sure. Why not?" If you're moving comfortably along with all the media is spitting out these days all around you, you don't even realize that you're being programmed.

And the last few posts prove to me that reason has been thrown out the window and given way to some "wordly-wise" "liberation". And that "liberation" is exactly what JAC posted an article about on the CE board the other day. I'll post it here but after that, let's take this discussion to the CE board.

[rockysigman]

melon1 said:

Your willful blindness to the fact that young teens are engaging in oral sex and doing drugs probably, no joke, 100 times more than 50 years ago, doesn't seem to phase you.

That is an insane assertion. I think you're going to need to cite some numbers on that before any credence can be given to that assertion. 100 times more? Holy shit. That's ridiculous.

Rap music from the car passing by shouting MF every other word, porno mags, BET(enuff said there alone), MTV, Jerry Springer, hell, just about any damn thing on TVs that are in 99% of households in America.

I still haven't ever heard an even semi-coherent argument about how hearing a swear word damages a child. Not one. As for the other stuff, yeah, porno exists and little kids shouldn't see it. Jerry Springer covers some racy topics and little kids shouldn't see it. But you know what? Porno has always existed. Always. And there have always been some racier things in pop culture as well. But somehow we survived. How? Well, for one, little kids weren't watching that stuff because their parents paid some sort of attention to what they were doing.

And I'm not sure even how many evangelical Christians such as myself share this viewpoint, but it is my belief that Satan himself is in Hollywood as often as any place in the world. You guys would like to think you're above brainwashera.

No, but I don't think you're above it either.

In fact, I expect that's what you think of the overall subject of religion. But I'm convinced that a steady diet of media and music (and I share in about as much of it as you guys) has you all programmed to just about a T.

See, that's a great example of where you've shown yourself to be susceptible to brainwashing -- your assumption that all non-religious people have such a strong negative opinion towards religious people. You've been told that over and over again by paranoid people who have a blanket opinion about anyone who doesn't share their beliefs, and you've convinced yourself that there's some sort of attack on religious people by non-religious people.

Nearly every time I step in a theatre, I see the programming process in the dialogue. I resist it rather easily because I see right through it, by God's grace. During the early 90s I started to see things happen before they really did. I don't mean to toot my own horn here but I noticed people changing their minds all around me about all kinds of beliefs they formerly had.

What's wrong with people changing their minds about things?

How, I ask, how did that happen so fast and so easily? Is it because the views they formerly held were those of complete ignorance? No, I tell you that it was none other than the brilliant manipulation of the enemy through media, especially films.

Or it could be that people are always changing their minds about things. Societies and cultures are constantly in a state of change, and always have been. Do you really think that, up until the early '90s, our society's mores and beliefs had been completely static since it's inception?

When the "gays in the military" thing was introduced, and most people freaked out, I remember saying,"That's just the beginning. Before you know it they'll want legal marriage and then it will go further than that. Adoption? Sure. Why not?" If you're moving comfortably along with all the media is spitting out these days all around you, you don't even realize that you're being programmed.

Or maybe people's changing viewpoints are being reflected by the media, not being controlled by it. The media is covering these changing ideas.

And the last few posts prove to me that reason has been thrown out the window and given way to some "wordly-wise" "liberation". And that "liberation" is exactly what JAC posted an article about on the CE board the other day. I'll post it here but after that, let's take this discussion to the CE board.

You still haven't explained to me why swearing and/or sexual language is worse than the systematic oppression of a large part of our population. I really don't get it.

I think you have a very idealized and inaccurate view of the past. I really believe that, Melon. You keep harking back to a time that never existed, as if swearing didn't exist until the '80s and sex and drugs didn't exist until the '90s or something.

[melon1]

In one corner we have the moronic secularists that insist that
freedom of speech cannot exist unless they are allowed to freely,
repeatedly and frequently say, write or draw the most vile, obscene,
vulgar and insulting things their perverted minds can come up with.
The logic of reasoned restraint is lost on them. In their twisted
minds the right to provoke must be absolute or freedom means nothing.
It's sort of like the kids whose given an expensive gift, and promptly
breaks it. They can't grasp the idea that freedom abused is not really
all that valuable and in the end, not really worth saving.

[rockysigman]

melon1 said:

In one corner we have the moronic secularists that insist that
freedom of speech cannot exist unless they are allowed to freely,
repeatedly and frequently say, write or draw the most vile, obscene,
vulgar and insulting things their perverted minds can come up with.
The logic of reasoned restraint is lost on them. In their twisted
minds the right to provoke must be absolute or freedom means nothing.
It's sort of like the kids whose given an expensive gift, and promptly
breaks it. They can't grasp the idea that freedom abused is not really
all that valuable and in the end, not really worth saving.

And what about in the other corner?

[melon1]

I've never seen ANYTHING so easy to pick apart as that, Rocky. You've ignored so many obvious truths, both written and implied by what was written, that you are obviously in shitloads of denial. But still, there's much more to pick apart and bring up than that. But, believe me or not (at the moment I could care less) I have to go so I will pick it apart later.

On the CE Board. You can cut and paste what I wrote and carry it over there. Doesn't matter to me.

[Galactus]

The world isn't getting worse, it may getting further away from the repression of the 50's when everyone likes to pretend were the golden days and nothing bad ever happened. The difference was it was all swept under the rug and ignored. Personally I think all this stuff should be upfront so we can deal with it...the problem is that there are alot of people who don't want to deal with it. They want to sweep it back under the rug where they can prentend it doesn't exist. Look at world history melon, this has always been a pretty fucked up place. The Ward & June Cleaver era never happened.

[rockysigman]

melon1 said:

I've never seen ANYTHING so easy to pick apart as that, Rocky. You've ignored so many obvious truths, both written and implied by what was written, that you are obviously in shitloads of denial. But still, there's much more to pick apart and bring up than that. But, believe me or not (at the moment I could care less) I have to go so I will pick it apart later.

On the CE Board. You can cut and paste what I wrote and carry it over there. Doesn't matter to me.

Alright, well, I'm looking forward to your response then. The easiest thing to pick apart ever, eh? Good times. I'm looking forward to reading the reports about how drug use is 100 times greater than it was 50 years ago.