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Post by Galactus on Jan 17, 2006 15:36:01 GMT -5
Well yes but they'd be wrong, for much the same reason you've used to justify it. It's too tied to a certain period. It's aged the worst of any Beatles album. I have no problem acknowledgeing it's momentous place in history, but it's neither the best Beatles album nor the greatest album ever.
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Post by Rit on Jan 17, 2006 15:46:04 GMT -5
DSotM the greatest of all time?
Thriller???!?!?!?!??!?
If Thriller is being nominated as best of all time, then, Thorn, your principles are all out of whack. And that's a wack state of affairs, yo.
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Post by Thorngrub on Jan 17, 2006 15:50:38 GMT -5
Anybody who was walking without a diaper the summer Sgt. Pepper's ... got released and witnessed the profound effect that album got on everybody throughout the world would have no problem arguing this could be the single most important piece of music ever created at that moment and still a contender ...  Phil is clearly onto something, here |
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Post by Thorngrub on Jan 17, 2006 15:53:50 GMT -5
DSotM the greatest of all time? Thriller???!?!?!?!??!? If Thriller is being nominated as best of all time, then, Thorn, your principles are all out of whack. And that's a wack state of affairs, yo. easy, Ritterman. I'm merely paving the foundation for alternative POVs. Alternative from yours and mine. We are attempting to factor in all relevant criteria. Top Sales certainly is not the end-all, be-all contributing factor, we all know that perfectly well. Yet it should factor in somewhat, at least. And whether you or I like it or not, MJ's Thriller was a worldwide phenom, period. This easily makes it a viable contendor. "Think outside the box", remember... *that means your box too* That just sounded NASTY... |
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Post by Rit on Jan 17, 2006 15:54:20 GMT -5
It all depends on where you place your values and expectations from the music you listen to. I don't know about anyone else, but my suspicion is that the music industry and 70% of rock music history has been filled with charlatans, careerists and clowns.
so i place my emphasis on confrontational bands. And the Velvets seem to have embodied a full and total response to all the ambiguities in the industry. For a brief while (4-5 years, to be exact), they laid down the groundwork for the best example of creating music in the industry on your own terms, virtually ensuring their place as mentors for every succeeding generation of independant minded musicians.
As such, They made the album of the Times, with VU&N.
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Post by Paul on Jan 17, 2006 15:56:00 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, Arthur sold a mere 25K copies when released in 1969, and to this day I don't think it's craked over 200k.....that my friends is a motherfuckin' shame. And it also means IMO, record sales mean shite.
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Post by Thorngrub on Jan 17, 2006 15:58:55 GMT -5
All 76 or so albums I've mentioned thus far are only meant as fodder towards paving the way to a more intelligible choice; they are not meant to be foisted upon your cherished sensibilities as sole candidates for "Greatest Album Of All Time", but rather, they are meant as reminders that myriad POVs count for something, so I'd be a poor sport if I didn't contribute my own POV on this matter now, wouldn't I? The most difficult thing in this process is weeding out our own personal biases and tastes. Live the criteria! Breathe the criteria! ....er, what's the criteria again?  |
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Post by RocDoc on Jan 17, 2006 16:06:52 GMT -5
Anybody who was walking without a diaper the summer Sgt. Pepper's ... got released
and witnessed the profound effect that album got on everybody throughout the world
would have no problem arguing this could be the single most important piece of music
ever created at that moment and still a contender ...
That, dear Phil, is very unfortunately a viewpoint that VERY few people in here can come by 'honestly'...nor do many of those people have the least bit of interest in anything OTHER than Monday-morning-quarterbacking the merits of the 'here-and-now' completely unecumbered by ANY sort of an historical perspective.
Consider yourself lucky to have experienced such a thing. I certainly do...and then I have to realize that no-one wishes to understand the incredible innovation of someone like the Beatles and say, oh someone like Hendrix...AS THEY created revolutions in sound.
Call it forensic musicology, but it seems like many would rather keep their focus narrowed to the 20-30 years they've been on the planet as though everything was just now invented.
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Post by Rit on Jan 17, 2006 16:11:41 GMT -5
Do you value albums that coddle you and nurse you with a huge milky tit back to sanity? Then go with The White Album or Dark Side of The Moon
If you, on the other hand, value the artistic choice that the Velvets created by the mere fact of them existing in popular music.. how they opened up whole new arenas for making music, how they deepened the act of taking an independant stand and made it a recognizable stance in the mainstream, then you know which album you will be picking.
Make your choice, for that's what it comes down to... what SORT OF WORLD DO YOU (WANT TO?) LIVE IN?
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Post by rockysigman on Jan 17, 2006 16:13:14 GMT -5
Anybody who was walking without a diaper the summer Sgt. Pepper's ... got released
and witnessed the profound effect that album got on everybody throughout the world
would have no problem arguing this could be the single most important piece of music
ever created at that moment and still a contender ... That, dear Phil, is very unfortunately a viewpoint that VERY few people in here can come by 'honestly'...nor do many of those people have the least bit of interest in anything OTHER than Monday-morning-quarterbacking the merits of the 'here-and-now' completely unecumbered by ANY sort of an historical perspective. Consider yourself lucky to have experienced such a thing. I certainly do...and then I have to realize that no-one wishes to understand the incredible innovation of someone like the Beatles and say, oh someone like Hendrix...AS THEY created revolutions in sound. Call it forensic musicology, but it seems like many would rather keep their focus narrowed to the 20-30 years they've been on the planet as though everything was just now invented. That's a fair criticism (although considering how few newer albums have been brought up in this debate, I don't know that it really applies to a lot of the people here), but I think it's also fair to say that a lot of people refuse to acknowledge the quality of anything made after a certain point in their lives. Plenty of people who did experience the '60s refuse to acknowledge the merit of music made much later than that, and that's an equally distorted view. |
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Post by luke on Jan 17, 2006 16:14:31 GMT -5
It seems like a lot more would rather live in a box where nothing after 1980 matched up to the Beatles, Floyd, Hendrix, and Zeppelin. Which is complete, utter shit.
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Post by Rit on Jan 17, 2006 16:15:55 GMT -5
considering that i wasn't born when VU&N was made, nor would i be for more than a decade after, then i think i'm not in that category of fan, RocDoc.
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Post by Rit on Jan 17, 2006 16:16:33 GMT -5
It seems like a lot more would rather live in a box where nothing after 1980 matched up to the Beatles, Floyd, Hendrix, and Zeppelin. Which is complete, utter shit. yep. |
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Post by Paul on Jan 17, 2006 16:22:04 GMT -5
It seems like a lot more would rather live in a box where nothing after 1980 matched up to the Beatles, Floyd, Hendrix, and Zeppelin. Which is complete, utter shit. yep. I think this is both true and untrue....many don't give newer bands a chance b/c they won't exit their "box", but at the same time there is a point....Very few newer bands have reached the levels of output Hendrix, Beatles, Stones, Kinks, and VU did.... Some that come to mind for me are Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Wilco, Nirvana, RHCP, and Sonic Youth. |
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Post by Thorngrub on Jan 17, 2006 16:30:01 GMT -5
As this process is, by definition, a consensus affair, it is necessary to pile up the candidates first, into one giant unseemly pile, generated by the sum POVs of all who participate.
This is why the more who participate, the better the end-results will be. Older fans of music who remember the classic days are absolutely essential to this poll. So are connoiseurs of such genres the youth of today may not give much time to, like jazz or classical to name but two.
Therefore the input of people such as Phil and RocDoc becomes indispensable towards achieving a more balanced elimination process.
For that is ALL that is going on here: ELIMINATING those albums which, however amazing they might be to you or me, must simply bow down before other more resounding choices, be they made for seniority, sales, chart-time, engineering, global impact, etc.
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