Five years of the iPod -- your thoughts

[Kensterberg]

pcook said:

I did my cd v. vinyl comparisons back in the middle eighties, and on the same system a good cd player with a good disc will blow away a good turntable with a good LP -- there's more dynamic range, more sonic detail, and frankly, that illusion of "warmth" in analog is generally just that. Also, vinyl is an inherently abrasive medium -- records wear out a hell of a lot faster than discs -- where every listen is naturally going to be of poorer quality than the one before. The cult of vinyl baffles me, it really does. I have absolutely no "warm fuzzies" towards vinyl.)


I listened to 'Face To Face' this past weekend on both vinyl and CD, and the former sounded way better to me. Perhaps its the way the CD was remastered (or the lack thereof), but the record sounded fuller, and yes, warmer. The drums had more depth, and the guitars came out cleaner sounding....I don't know, perhaps if the Kinks katalog were put on SACD and played through an SACD player it would sound better....but I've now heard both 'Face to Face' and 'Arthur' on vinyl, and it sounds WAY better than the CD.

That has everything to do with the insanely bad transfers of the Kinks' catalog to cd, and the poor source material. Stuff that was recorded badly in the first place can have those defects highlighted in playback on a superior format. Go make a tape on a really cheap recorder, and on a poor quality tape. Now play it back on a good deck -- it'll still sound like shit. Transfer it to a cd and play it back -- sounds horrible doesn't it? It might even sound worse on the cd than it did on a good deck. But go back and listen to it on the cheap system you recorded it on ... doesn't sound that bad, does it?

Well, this is the problem with the Kinks catalog. The stuff was recorded very poorly in the first place, and the transfers to cd have never been designed to hide the flaws in those recordings. Since analog doesn't contain as much information as an uncompressed digital file, there's less there for you to hear, and that means that the vinyl can sound better, simply b/c it's hiding how bad the original recording was. If the Kinks were to ever get a really sympathetic remastering, then the cds would sound at least as good as the vinyl, if not significantly better.

To really look at the relative merits of CD v. LP, you've got to have recordings that are optimized for both, and where the source material is of a decent quality. Those comparisons always wind up with the CD on top. I can understand someone saying "this particular LP sounds better than this particular CD," but when you're making blanket statements, the evidence is all in favor of compact disc. If anywhere near the same effort is put into mastering the two formats, and the result is played over a good system, the CD is clearly sonically superior.

A final note, not all cd players sound identical. I've heard guys say "my turntable sounds better than my cd player" when what they mean is "my $1,000 turntable/needle combo sounds better than my $99 Wal-Mart special CD player." Duh!

[skvorisdeadsorta]

Sorry Ken, I can't agree with you. A perfectly set up Technics turn table with a great needle with a nice amp and vinyl that is 180 gram vinyl is going to stomp all over your fucking pussy digital circle. Also, I have had vinyl that has lasted WAY longer than the CD because:
1. I don't take it to work.
2. I don't take it to the car. I have a tape player. If I want to listen to it in the car, I make a tape, which still sounds better than shitty ass MP3 transfers on a fucking iPod.

3. The big one. I can't think of anything that says consumer marketed bullshit sucker than an MP3 player and especially the socially "cool" iPod.

Conclusion: Fuck iPod.

[Kensterberg]

skvorisdeadsorta said:

A perfectly set up Technics turn table with a great needle with a nice amp and vinyl that is 180 gram vinyl is going to stomp all over your fucking pussy digital circle.

(Emphasis added) I'm glad that Skvor agrees that when we keep the comparisons more or less equal, cds kick the shit out of vinyl. Because what Skvor is saying here is that audiophile level vinyl, played back with a high end needle on a good to great turntable will sound better than, um, a generic cd player from Wal-Mart. I should hope so!

But I'm sorry Skvor, my mid-range Sony cd players have always sounded far better than my (also mid-range) NAD turntable w/a high end needle (I spent more on the needle than I did on either the turntable or cd player!) when played through the same pre-amp/amp/speaker set-up.

And if I'd upped my cd player to a low-end audiophile modile (say an Adcom or Denon), it would be even more of a wipeout.

Also, lets not forget that the 180 gram (virgin) vinyl pressings you're talking about cost considerably more than buying the same thing at Best Buy, etc. So that's money that can go into either a better disc player or to audiophile cd pressings. And believe me, my gold discs of Tommy and Kind of Blue blow away the comparable vinyl issues.

Keep the playing field level, and cds always sound better than vinyl, much like vinyl always sounded better than cassettes when all other things were equal.

I'll address the other points in a later post. Maybe. If I feel like it.

[kool]

ded said:

Don't have an iPod and I don't really want one. I have a CD player that plays MP3's when that quits I don't have to worry about getting all those songs back. I'm always surprised by people who sell their whole collection becuase they bought an iPod. It's going to crash and then where are you? I still like CDs. I still buy them. Even stuff I download generally gets burned and put in the car or played in the store I rarely ever listen to music on a computer.

That's exactly where I stand with the ipod. Don't have it, see no reason to get it either. When I download music, and I have enough of it to fit onto a blank CD-R, I burn it on there for back-up and to listen to with my DVD player (which plays mp3s and is connected to my stereo). The only time I'll burn Audio CD's is for the car, and that's only because my car stereo doesn't play Mp3's.

If i'm playing music on my computer, I use winamp where i've transfered all my (mostly dowloaded) music on my hard drive to its media library. Winamp rocks in that it's both user friendly and never crashes (ulike Windows Media Player which sucks)

And I totally agree with Ken on this vinyl vs CD business. There's only one thing IMHO which the vinyl LP has on the CD. Artwork. That's it. Otherwise, they're a bitch to handle. Turning over after only a few songs, dust/cleaning, protective plastic slips, easily scratched, etc. I'm glad the format is a thing of the past.

[Kensterberg]

I'm surprised that ThoRny hasn't had anything to say about the merits of vinyl. He's a huge analog guy.

[Kensterberg]

I'm also surprised that this poll has been dominated by either "I've got an iPod" or "I want an iPod" ... only one vote (should be Skvor, right?) for "no way" and then there's Phil out in the garden w/his plants.

[kool]

The "I wouldn't be caught dead with one" is mine, but it's not entirely true. If you were to give me one, I'd keep it and maybe use it on the odd bus/train ride, otherwise I don't see the point in having one.

I wanted to vote for "No, I don't own one, but I don't want one either", but that wasn't an option.

[Galactus]

I didn't vote because I'm not "no way" about it...I'd be happy to get one for Christmas or buy one real cheap but I really just don't have much use for one.

[limitdeditionlayla]

I bought an iPod (I also have another, non-iPod mp3 player) to accomodate travelling. In that respect, and also for things like working out, its great. You can tune it to your car stereo FM & playlists are fun.

So yeah, handy, but in terms of durability, pieces of shit. Sound quality can be iffy, iTunes straight-out sucks (Gracenote uploads songs with incorrect titles, like I have time to sit there & retype in a thousand songtitles, v annoying), if you make the mistake of not having a ($20) iPod silicon cover the entire thing will be scratched up like no tomorrow within weeks.

If you want an mp3 player, check out what else is available. iPods sell because a lot of people don't realise there are similar capacity (slightly cheaper) players out there. Brand names could sell a piece of shit if it came in a nice box.

[Kensterberg]

In the interests of (some sort of) disclosure, here are the most played songs on my iPod (not iTunes, just the portable player) ...

Song Title, Artist, Number of Times Played on the iPod (since I last reformated it, which was within the past year).

Knockin' On Heaven's Door, Warren Zevon 45
No More Mr. Nice Guy, Alice Cooper 39
Solsbury Hill, Peter Gabriel 38
Love Stinks, The J. Geils Band 31 (this is the most played song I've ever bought on iTunes)
Under Pressure, Queen & David Bowie 30
Ashes of American Flags (live), Wilco 30
Money (That's What I Want), The Beatles 29
Unsatisfied, The Replacements 29
Across The Universe ("Naked" version), The Beatles 26
"Heroes", David Bowie 26
Life On Mars? [Live], David Bowie 26
Caravan Of Love, Housemartins 26
Life During Wartime, Talking Heads (Live from The Name Of This Band Is Talking Heads) 26
You Gotta Be, Des'ree 25 (bought this one on iTunes, too, everybody has to have guilty pleasures, right?!)
All the Young Dudes, Mott the Hoople 25
Beast Of Burden, The Rolling Stones 25
Leaving Las Vegas, Sheryl Crow 25
High Water, Bob Dylan 24
Needles And Pins, The Ramones 24
Eminance Front, The Who 24
Better Things, Dar Williams (cover of the Kinks song) 24
Stuck In A Moment You Can't Get Out Of (Acoustic), U2 22
Theologians, Wilco 22
I And I, Bob Dylan 21
Mr. Tambourine Man [Live, Rolling Thunder], Bob Dylan 21
Love Minus Zero / No Limit [Live, Rolling Thunder], Bob Dylan 21
I'm One, The Who 21
Someone Somewhere (In Summertime), Simple Minds 20
Believe What You're Saying (Campfire Mix), Sugar 20
Sweet Jane (Full-Length Version), The Velvet Underground 20

[Kensterberg]

Oddly enough, the thing that all the tech/media writers emphasize about the iPod is the beautiful simplicity of its interface, which absolutely no one here has said a thing about! We are obviously not a typical bunch, apparently.

I do agree with the mainstream media that the interface is a big part of what makes the iPod so special. No other MP3 player is as intuitive (or fun) to use, nor is any other player so well integrated with the complementary computer software. This ease of use is what makes the iPod so much more succesfull than its competitors. The fact that the iPod looks very cool certainly doesn't hurt it (nor has Apple's continual updating of the device), but it's really the interface that separates it from the Samsung or iRiver products, for example.

[luke]

limitdeditionlayla said:

If you want an mp3 player, check out what else is available. iPods sell because a lot of people don't realise there are similar capacity (slightly cheaper) players out there. Brand names could sell a piece of shit if it came in a nice box.

I still swear by Rio for durability. I used to take my Rio Sports on 12 mile runs, and if they weren't dripping with my sweat it was only because they got rained on. You can kick those things around all you want. I only ever had 2- one got stolen and the other made it two years before it gave out, which is great considering all the abuse it took.

I do like iPods better than the iRiver stuff. More versatile and accessories are cheaper and more abundant. For equal storage capacity and the ability to watch television shows and podcasts and all that other silly stuff I'll never do on a screen that little, iPod wins every time.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

Um, Ken, I don't know where you are going for your vinyl but you're getting ripped off. I pay nothing more than 13.99 for a new release that is 180 gram vinyl (which is almost all of the Matador releases) and that's still 2 to 3 dollars cheaper than a CD and about the same price as buying something from iTunes.

Dude, I love Apple, but iPods are shit. As an audio mastering guy as well, sorry dude, I'm just going to have to disagree with you. I can get way more power out of a decent amp and even a not so good turn table than I can with the Binary language at 44.1 kHz. You lose a lot in the transfer when you convert the language into the ones and zeroes and I just honestly can't understand why people like CDs. CDs are loads better than MP3s (which to me is like listening to rock an AM radio station) but still, I don't think it's all the beesknees. Also, the art's too small and I like the big album art with huge lyrics sheets that records have. CDs lost a bit of the visual side of the medium as well for me.

[skvorisdeadsorta]

Also, buy an iPod and paying them a hundred bucks to have them put a new battery in is super sucker right there. I can go to a good used audio shop and get a decent amp for that price. Man, the whole iPod thing is just a big rip off to me.

[Galactus]

skvorisdeadsorta said:

Um, Ken, I don't know where you are going for your vinyl but you're getting ripped off. I pay nothing more than 13.99 for a new release that is 180 gram vinyl (which is almost all of the Matador releases) and that's still 2 to 3 dollars cheaper than a CD and about the same price as buying something from iTunes.

Dude, I love Apple, but iPods are shit. As an audio mastering guy as well, sorry dude, I'm just going to have to disagree with you. I can get way more power out of a decent amp and even a not so good turn table than I can with the Binary language at 44.1 kHz. You lose a lot in the transfer when you convert the language into the ones and zeroes and I just honestly can't understand why people like CDs. CDs are loads better than MP3s (which to me is like listening to rock an AM radio station) but still, I don't think it's all the beesknees. Also, the art's too small and I like the big album art with huge lyrics sheets that records have. CDs lost a bit of the visual side of the medium as well for me.

Dude, I'd love to know where you get vinyl. I can't order most 180 gram for less then 20$.

Also, you've been trained to hear the differences, most people, I'll put money on it, cannot tell the difference between vinyl, Cds or high bit rate MP3s.