Mr. Thunk's Forum For Spirituality and Sociology

[poseidon]

Actually it was "given" to me by a Hilton guest. Don't think it was ever charged to his room though...

[poseidon]

After a sordid evening of fellatio and sodomy...

[poseidon]

BTW: Happy Easter...

[melon1]

chrisfan said:

I won't even touch on the notion that the majority of Christians believe that homosexuality is forbidden by God, and how exactly you concluded that. I am absolutely baffled at the notion that inn keepers, or anyone else, believes it is possible to prevent sin from happening under their roof. I don't do a very good job of making sure it doesn't happen under my own roof - and I live by myself and don't run an B&B.

What do the B&B owners do to ensure that unmarried couples aren't having sex in their inns? If we accept that your views, T, are the norm for Christians, what do they do to ensure that married couples are not engaging in oral sex in their inns? Do they do a count of soaps, towels, and bathrobes before checkout to make sure there is no stealing going on? What measures are taken for families occupying rooms to ensure the kids are obeying their parents?

It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that anyone can wage enough control over their own home let alonea B&B to make sure it is a sin free zone.

Chrisfan, this is a ridiculous overreaction to say the least. Putting ALL "sin" and keeping gay sex from going on under your roof in the same context is absurd. Of course, you want an explanation for this. And I don't mind giving one. Say you run a bed in breakfast. Let's say it's in a country that allows the use of drugs such as marijuana. Now, since it's legal, do you have a right to have a problem with it at all going on under your roof? If so, do you think allowing people who obviously swear like sailors to stay there would be a fair comparison to letting potheads who have already made it plain to you that they're going to light up stay there. The reason I put it this way: "who have already made it plain to you" is that my only problem is with people openly claiming to be homosexuals demanding the right to stay at such a place in the same damn room. You probably wouldn't have expected this in the least, but it wouldn't bother me at all if a gay couple showed up at such a place and ended up sleeping in the same room as long as they kept their homosexuality to themselves as a secret. Even if they had gay sex there. Did you hear that? It's the principle I'm concerned with. God can handle that kind of stuff going on in a place set aside for His ministry. What I'm getting at is that homosexuality has sorta become a controversial tool that's being thrown around to "test" people. To coerce their reaction to it. It is being demanded the same respect that you should have for someone of a different race, which is quite deceptive, but argued in the same manner, and unfortunately, to me, very effective.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that I agree with the scripture that says that "the wages of sin is death" and that all sin is bad, but to think that you can't separate certain sins(whatever "sins" are to you - in the kind of country I just mentioned, getting high wouldn't be a sin, technically, now would it?) when considering residents at your own B&B, EVEN when it might be a biblically based B&B that you've personally set up to be a ministry, is pretty much the same thing as saying that an employer is being hypocritical to let someone who has committed a misdemeanor work for them while not allowing a felon to be their employee. Garsh! That may well be the longest damn run-on sentence ever written. But hopefully it made sense to you.

My wife and I went to Our Father's Arms in Jacksonville, Alabama, run by my second cousin and mentor to get counseling before we got married. Since we weren't married, it was a given that we were to sleep in separate rooms. Even if we were of the percentage(small) of Christians who think there's nothing at all wrong with pre-marital sex, we still would have slept in two different rooms out of respect. Why can't it be understood by you and others around here that Christian B&B's deserve the same respect? I used to have time to go further into things like this with people, but these days I'm convicted about it because there are SO MANY people willing to listen to the truth that I could be spending my time with instead. Sorry to put it that way. I couldn't help it. Overlook it if you will, but I can't think of another way to put it. It's just that after this post, my position has been explained so well that no matter what you come back with, I'm determined not to even respond next time. That's all. So say what you will in response. I'll read it, but you'll get no response.

And concerning your problem with me considering most born again, blood-bought Christians believing that homosexuality is a sin: For lack of a better example, I suppose I shouldn't suggest that most blacks don't watch CMT either.

Peace.

[chrisfan]

Melon, I did not say I had a problem with you considering most born again blood-bought Christinas to believe homosexuality a sin. You changed your boundaries there. In your initial comment, you said the majority of CHRISTIANS beleive that homosexuality is a sin. There is a big difference there, which I trust you can recognize.

I don't have a problem with B&B owners setting any rules they wish on what will happen in their inns - much like I have no problems with bar and restaurant owners deciding on their own if smoking will or will not be allowed. But the reality is that if you set your standards too high (you can't be a sinner and stay here!) then you'll go out of business before you host your first guest.

I simply find it absurd to pretend that if you are not allowing gay couples to stay at your inn, that you're doing so to keep sin out of your inn. If you're keeping gay people out of your inn, you're merely putting your homophobia on display. I do not see any good business sense in doing such a thing. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to guess that gay couples have more disposable income to spend at a B&B than homophobes do.

[melon1]

Chris, I expanded my post even before I saw that you had responded. I will take this no further, but I do ask that you read what I added. Thanks.

[chrisfan]

I think I need to expand on this ... the idea you seem to cling to that you somehow can speak for the majority of Christians. I just can't think of a more dangerous concept. To me, there is no single job that a Christian has that is more important than sharing the love of Christ with other people. No matter how you slice and dice it, there is no room for exclusion in sharing love. When you try to pretend to speak for all Christians, you're endorsing a practice of exclusion. Christians are the in crowd, and non-Christians are the outsiders. That is not Christianity by any stretch in my mind.

When you consider "Gays not welcome" behavior to be Christian-like, what kind of message are you giving to gay people? How on earth do you say "You're not welcome here as long as you behave like you do ... but Jesus loves you!" and expect it to mean anything?

For some God-knows-why reason (because I'd never think of HBO as being the source of something especially spiritual for me) the documentary they just aired on Rosie O'Donnell's gay family cruise really stuck with me in that respect. There was a portion of the documentary when they docked in the Bahammas, and there was a group that called themselves Christians protesting the gay families being there. The signs they were holding, and the words they were spouting could not be considered anything short of unwelcoming and people would be justified to call it hate-filled. One of the mothers on the cruise made a comment, "When a gay person sees this, it tells us that the message of Christianity is hate. I know that is not true, but it's really hard to see anything else when you see a display like this". While you had all these people who call themselves Christians on their hate display, they showed person after person coming off the cruise ship showing the crowd signs of peace, smiling, walking past quietly. THEY were the ones showing love! And in hte most moving part of all, a gay minister who was on the cruise stood there, wearing her collar, watching the whole thing go on. When the crowd started singing "What a Mighty God We Serve", this woman was singing right along with them, loud, and from the heart. For me, it was such a powerful, powerful display of what a REAL Christian is. Faced with such an unwelcoming sight, she was reaching deep into her faith to remain strong, peaceful, and loving, praising God in the face of rejection. I've heard her singing voice in my head over and over again since watching the scene. If I have my choice, I'd much rather her be the face of Christ that is displayed to those wondering what Christianity is all about then the "Your kind isn't welcome here" crowd. The other thing that stuck with me from that documentary? Rosie's partner talking about how her devoutly Christian parents ask them each year to send their kids down to bible camp in Louisiana, and saying they can't, because they just can't risk the messages that those kids would be fed about their parents. As sad as I find that, I cannot for a second pretend it's not a justified fear. There is nothing about that kind of exclusionary bullshit that I can look at and see the face of Christ.

[Galactus]

Yeah, again, you don't have a problem with homosexuality unless you have to acknowledge it in any way. I said that already.

[chrisfan]

melon1 said:

What I'm getting at is that homosexuality has sorta become a controversial tool that's being thrown around to "test" people. To coerce their reaction to it. It is being demanded the same respect that you should have for someone of a different race, which is quite deceptive, but argued in the same manner, and unfortunately, to me, very effective.

Just found the added part. I disagree on two counts.

First, the notion of homosexuality becoming a controversial tool that is being thrown around to test people. You are well aware of the fact that Christianity has been considered controversial at various times in history - and still is in some parts of the world. Whem a Muslim man from Afghanistan travels the world, converts to Christianity, and then returns to Afghanistan, is that a controversial tool being used to test people? Or is it a man acting of his own free will to be who he is? Melon, homosexuality isn't peopel testing you -- it's people being who they are. They've been who they are WITHOUT your approval. They've been who they are without the approval of MANY. To say that it's some sort of a test is very arrogant. Their being homosexual isn't about you, your approval, or the approval of anyone else.

Second - the respect thing. I truly see nothing wrong with expecting people to respect other people. I don't give a damn what their sexuality is, what their race is, what their political affiliation is, or what their favorite clothing store is. It is the PERSON who deserves respect - not some aspect of who the person is.

[Thorngrub]

ded said:

Yeah, again, you don't have a problem with homosexuality unless you have to acknowledge it in any way. I said that already.

I don't have a problem with it unless one is hitting on me.

And then: it's still no problem, cuz I shake em off like water droplets off a duck's back.

So . . . where's the problem?

[strat-0]

The problem with this bed and breakfast and "under your roof" thing is that, taken to its logical conclusion, you would have to buy a house to have sex outside of marriage (or even just if you do have sex outside of marriage) if the property owner felt that way, and I don't think many people are going to get onboard with that kind of thinking. B&B, hotel, motel, apartment, condo rental; all are similar in that you're paying for lodging, and that means that for the duration of your stay, that's your home. Obviously, you're liable if you maliciously destroy it or violate maintenance rules (smoking in a non-smoking room or something), but other than that, it's nobody's business what you do if you're not hurting anyone. Personally, I believe you should be able to refuse service to anyone for any or no reason, but we now have laws that prevent you from doing that for certain specific reasons. I don't really think that's right to enforce on a proprietor, but I understand the reasons behind it and I guess it's a necessary evil today. In any case, it's the law (here).

On the other hand, if gays go to a Christian B&B for the express purpose of causing a big flap, well, there are technically laws against that also, such as creating a public niusance, criminal trespass, etc. Btw, Chris, I agree with your take on the White House Easter egg thing over at CE.

[Galactus]

Thunk let me ask you this, if man wanted to rent at a Christian B&B and a man came to rent a room with someone that an employee knew wasn't his wife would they turn them away? Would they be expected to? or would they more likely just say "it's none of our business"? Is the only difference what's more outwardly visible? As long as they don't APPEAR to be endorsing anything untoward. Could homosexuls use the service entrance if they promise not to make out at breakfest? You and I both know what this really comes down to: it makes good god lovin' folk feel icky to think some queers might be buttfucking in their establishment. Nothing more nothing less.

[limitdeditionlayla]

When you consider "Gays not welcome" behavior to be Christian-like, what kind of message are you giving to gay people? How on earth do you say "You're not welcome here as long as you behave like you do ... but Jesus loves you!" and expect it to mean anything?

Huh-fucking-rah - I'm glad someone has pointed this out to his Thunkiness.

Can we get that statement made out in stamp form so I can stamp it on the hands of everyone who doesn't practice as Jesus preached?

[kmc]

limitdeditionlayla said:

When you consider "Gays not welcome" behavior to be Christian-like, what kind of message are you giving to gay people? How on earth do you say "You're not welcome here as long as you behave like you do ... but Jesus loves you!" and expect it to mean anything?

Huh-fucking-rah - I'm glad someone has pointed this out to his Thunkiness.

Can we get that statement made out in stamp form so I can stamp it on the hands of everyone who doesn't practice as Jesus preached?

I expect Melon to respond with some tough love of Christianity stock answer; that the love of God exists in fighting sin; that if gays were sincere and open they would see their rejection as a call from God to change their evil ways, etc.

Thing is, we're trying to argue with someone who believes that homosexuality is either a choice or a mental sickness on par with pedophilia. It's the same disconnect Chrisfan and I often express in these boards when we get into discussions. I figure that, to make any head way with Melon, you've got to argue from his side of the fence.

Melon, given that homosexuality is a choice, why would someone choose to become a homosexual, and to what benefit? More importantly, why would a gay person follow through with that choice for years and years, through monogamous relationships and (possibly) adoptions? What is it about the gay lifestyle that makes it so attractive to some people?

[rockysigman]

Ken, it's the shoes.