Mr. Thunk's Forum For Spirituality and Sociology

[melon1]

You can take this a step further. My sister and I have travelled together on a few occasions. We share a hotel room when we do if it's just the two of us. If my sister and me showed up at a B&B to check into one room, how would the inn keeper know we were sisters? (we have different last names) Woud we be assumed to be lesbian lovers, and therefore turned away? Or could a gay couple just say they're siblings ... which of course would entail the sin of lying.

Chris, I've already addressed this very point, but you somehow missed it when I asked you to reread my post for the addition to it. Please reread this paragraph:

"Say you run a bed in breakfast. Let's say it's in a country that allows the use of drugs such as marijuana. Now, since it's legal, do you have a right to have a problem with it at all going on under your roof? If so, do you think allowing people who obviously swear like sailors to stay there would be a fair comparison to letting potheads who have already made it plain to you that they're going to light up stay there. The reason I put it this way: "who have already made it plain to you" is that my only problem is with people openly claiming to be homosexuals demanding the right to stay at such a place in the same damn room. You probably wouldn't have expected this in the least, but it wouldn't bother me at all if a gay couple showed up at such a place and ended up sleeping in the same room as long as they kept their homosexuality to themselves as a secret. Even if they had gay sex there. Did you hear that? It's the principle I'm concerned with. God can handle that kind of stuff going on in a place set aside for His ministry. What I'm getting at is that homosexuality has sorta become a controversial tool that's being thrown around to "test" people. To coerce their reaction to it. It is being demanded the same respect that you should have for someone of a different race, which is quite deceptive, but argued in the same manner, and unfortunately, to me, very effective."

[melon1]

I think I need to expand on this ... the idea you seem to cling to that you somehow can speak for the majority of Christians. I just can't think of a more dangerous concept. To me, there is no single job that a Christian has that is more important than sharing the love of Christ with other people. No matter how you slice and dice it, there is no room for exclusion in sharing love. When you try to pretend to speak for all Christians, you're endorsing a practice of exclusion. Christians are the in crowd, and non-Christians are the outsiders. That is not Christianity by any stretch in my mind.


Chris, what your implying with this paragraph is that claiming that certain scripture written in the word of God is true is equivalent to being exclusionary, which is false in every way. What is also completely false is your assertion that speaking for all Christians is indefinitely "endorsing a practice of exclusion". Really? Would that be the case if I was declaring that all Christian believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and that his blood has paid for our sins? As far as Christians being the "in-crowd" and non - Christians being the "outsiders", I suppose I'll respond by quoting Jesus, whose every word I believe and do my best to follow:

"It is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick."

and

"There is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner repenting than over a thousand righteous people who do not need to be saved."

Of course, lost people are "outsiders" to an extent. I don't think I could follow your train of though in any way if you, as a proclaiming Christian, were suggesting otherwise. But those very "outsiders" are our mission on this earth, our very focus being given the ministry of Jesus, which Jesus Himself described this way:

"I didn't come to call the righteous, but sinners."

[chrisfan]

melon1 said:

You can take this a step further. My sister and I have travelled together on a few occasions. We share a hotel room when we do if it's just the two of us. If my sister and me showed up at a B&B to check into one room, how would the inn keeper know we were sisters? (we have different last names) Woud we be assumed to be lesbian lovers, and therefore turned away? Or could a gay couple just say they're siblings ... which of course would entail the sin of lying.

Chris, I've already addressed this very point, but you somehow missed it when I asked you to reread my post for the addition to it. Please reread this paragraph:

"Say you run a bed in breakfast. Let's say it's in a country that allows the use of drugs such as marijuana. Now, since it's legal, do you have a right to have a problem with it at all going on under your roof? If so, do you think allowing people who obviously swear like sailors to stay there would be a fair comparison to letting potheads who have already made it plain to you that they're going to light up stay there. The reason I put it this way: "who have already made it plain to you" is that my only problem is with people openly claiming to be homosexuals demanding the right to stay at such a place in the same damn room. You probably wouldn't have expected this in the least, but it wouldn't bother me at all if a gay couple showed up at such a place and ended up sleeping in the same room as long as they kept their homosexuality to themselves as a secret. Even if they had gay sex there. Did you hear that? It's the principle I'm concerned with. God can handle that kind of stuff going on in a place set aside for His ministry. What I'm getting at is that homosexuality has sorta become a controversial tool that's being thrown around to "test" people. To coerce their reaction to it. It is being demanded the same respect that you should have for someone of a different race, which is quite deceptive, but argued in the same manner, and unfortunately, to me, very effective."

T, I read it the first time, and I read it the second time. It is simply an approach that does not make sense to me. Why choose a single sin, one that isn't even discussed by Christ in the bible, and single people out for it? What does this accomplish? How is this giving shelter to someone who needs it? How is this feeding someone who is hugry? How is this sharing God's love with others? It simply does not make any sense to me whatsoever to view keeping gay people out of your inn for whatever reason, to be something that would show you're living a good Christian life. It does not make spiritual sense to me, and it certainly does not make business sense to me.

[melon1]

When you consider "Gays not welcome" behavior to be Christian-like, what kind of message are you giving to gay people? How on earth do you say "You're not welcome here as long as you behave like you do ... but Jesus loves you!" and expect it to mean anything?


Perhaps there is nothing more necessary for me to respond to here as this seeing as Layla quoted it and gave it such heartily praise.

Here's my response. Please, everyone read the following.

I believe that about 90% of the way Christians react to homosexuals and their agenda is not Christlike in the least.

There, putting it in bold may cause more to see that. Hopefully. This is why: The Spirit of God is not threatened by sin whatsoever and we, as Christians, should take the same approach. The church has been promised by its Lord that "the gates of hell will not prevail against her," so why be perplexed and worried about it.....Mr.T. Yes, I was addressing myself there. I need to hear this as much as anyone else.

"The Spirit of Christ never reacts. He either waits patiently or responds in love."

- Bob McLeod

[chrisfan]

melon1 said:

I think I need to expand on this ... the idea you seem to cling to that you somehow can speak for the majority of Christians. I just can't think of a more dangerous concept. To me, there is no single job that a Christian has that is more important than sharing the love of Christ with other people. No matter how you slice and dice it, there is no room for exclusion in sharing love. When you try to pretend to speak for all Christians, you're endorsing a practice of exclusion. Christians are the in crowd, and non-Christians are the outsiders. That is not Christianity by any stretch in my mind.


Chris, what your implying with this paragraph is that claiming that certain scripture written in the word of God is true is equivalent to being exclusionary, which is false in every way.

No, I am not implying that AT ALL. I am not taking issue with your belief in scripture (although I disagree with your interpretation of that scripture). What I am taking issue with is the way that you put those beliefs into action. Make no mistake about it T - it is your (and the people like the inn keepers in question who you defended) actions I have a problem with. Your ACTIONS are saying "you're not welcome here". If your gay, you can't stay at my B&B. Or you can't be a minister in my church. Or you can't be a member of my church. Or you can't visit the island I live on without my holding a rally to tell you to go home. That is what I have issue with. Not a belief in scripture.

melon1 said:

What is also completely false is your assertion that speaking for all Christians is indefinitely "endorsing a practice of exclusion". Really? Would that be the case if I was declaring that all Christian believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and that his blood has paid for our sins?

A lovely red herring there. But since that's all it is, there's really no need to respond.

melon1 said:

As far as Christians being the "in-crowd" and non - Christians being the "outsiders", I suppose I'll respond by quoting Jesus, whose every word I believe and do my best to follow:

"It is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick."

and

"There is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner repenting than over a thousand righteous people who do not need to be saved."

Of course, lost people are "outsiders" to an extent. I don't think I could follow your train of though in any way if you, as a proclaiming Christian, were suggesting otherwise. But those very "outsiders" are our mission on this earth, our very focus being given the ministry of Jesus, which Jesus Himself described this way:

"I didn't come to call the righteous, but sinners."

T, how exactly are you putting these scriptures into action with the actions that you take? If you refuse to associate with gay people (and let's be honest - how exactly do you associate with them if you tell them they can't come under your roof with the way they behave? You can say that you aren't refusing to associate with them, but how are you actually doing it?) When you exclude, you make it absolutely impossible to to share God's love with those who haven't found it yet.

Please spare me another post where you say you're not excluding. YOU ARE. You've had multiple gay people tell you that your rhetoric causes them not to listen to you. You've heard the stories of gay parents who refuse to send their kids to church camp because they fear their kids being turned against them. You cannot control the reaction that you provoke. Therefore, through your actions, intended or unintended, you ARE excluding. So please tell me - how do you share the love of God with those you refuse to reach out to?

[melon1]

It simply does not make any sense to me whatsoever to view keeping gay people out of your inn for whatever reason, to be something that would show you're living a good Christian life. It does not make spiritual sense to me, and it certainly does not make business sense to me.

Chrisfan, this is simply a misunderstanding between us. That's all. All I've been trying to say from the getgo is that people that run Christian B&B's shouldn't be expected to accept gays who show up at their door identifying themselves as a gay couple. You know, holding hands, kissing etc. That's all. If you don't see eye to eye with me on this, we'll just have to agree to disagree. No big deal.

[Thorngrub]

T: Don't they teach ya "Thou shalt not judge" -?


Just wanna straighten this whole mess misunderstanding up, but

*One Step At A Time*

[Thorngrub]

* If there be a "Book Of Caveats", please direct me to it . . .

[chrisfan]

melon1 said:

It simply does not make any sense to me whatsoever to view keeping gay people out of your inn for whatever reason, to be something that would show you're living a good Christian life. It does not make spiritual sense to me, and it certainly does not make business sense to me.

Chrisfan, this is simply a misunderstanding between us. That's all. All I've been trying to say from the getgo is that people that run Christian B&B's shouldn't be expected to accept gays who show up at their door identifying themselves as a gay couple. You know, holding hands, kissing etc. That's all. If you don't see eye to eye with me on this, we'll just have to agree to disagree. No big deal.

What is Christian like in such behavior?

[melon1]

Your ACTIONS are saying "you're not welcome here". If your gay, you can't stay at my B&B. Or you can't be a minister in my church. Or you can't be a member of my church. Or you can't visit the island I live on without my holding a rally to tell you to go home. That is what I have issue with. Not a belief in scripture.


Ok, the first two sentences I just addressed in my previous post, as you'll notice. I do believe an openly gay person should be able to be a member of ANY church(perhaps to your surprise), and I think that would be an incredible opportunity for a testimony in the future. I do not believe a gay person should be a minister. Should you give just the amount of a consideration that homosexuality might be a sin as you would like me to have that homosexuality might NOT be a sin, then you can begin to understand why the gay priest thing is actually a pretty big deal. The whole HBO special featuring Rosie O'Donnel will be addressed in a minute. It was very thought-provoking to me, believe it or not, although not likely in the way you expected it to be.

[chrisfan]

'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

[chrisfan]

T, just to make things easier from this point out - may I ask you to drop your expectations of how I and others will react to what you say? Just say what you believe, and we'll react as we react. When you keep on throwing in all of these "What you expect"s, it comes across with a certain level of famewhoring.

[Thorngrub]

chrisfan said:

T, just to make things easier from this point out - may I ask you to drop your expectations of how I and others will react to what you say? Just say what you believe, and we'll react as we react. When you keep on throwing in all of these "What you expect"s, it comes across with a certain level of famewhoring.

Good advice.


"famewhoring" - *nice word chrisfan* !

[melon1]

So please tell me - how do you share the love of God with those you refuse to reach out to?

Chris, I've met a number of lesbians before, one that I worked with for about a week and a half before she left(so I barely got to know her). I've only known to gay guys in my life. The first I hung out with a few times. Then I found out he was gay, but didn't avoid being around him after finding out. The second that I met is my testimony to you of how I treat homosexuals.

His nickname was "Turtle". For some reason, he never told me his real name. We met once. He ended up inviting me to his house where we talked about music a bunch. He was a deadhead. Later that night he approached me with the question of what I thought about gay marriage, since, he said, it was such a big issue at the time. I told him what I thought, having no idea that he was gay, and then after finishing my opinion on it, he informed me that he was gay. My initial reaction:"Lord, what would you have me do?" And what the Lord ended up having me do was to befriend the guy and get to know him. I often went to Wal-Mart where he worked and walked around the place with him while he dustmopped. I made him a mixed tape. I invited him to my house a couple of times. I even went to a movie with him. Did you hear that? Shocked, are you? From time to time I planted seed hoping that God would send another to water it later. God did say,"My word does not come back void," ya know. I accepted him as a friend. I didn't shove my beliefs on him. I learned about his past, what he was all about and basically had a good time hanging out with the guy. I left him, hopefully but not likely, with the ponderance that Jesus might be the real thing. I did all the Lord commanded me to do and I had to relocate, so I haven't seen him again. Unfortunately, I've no way to keep up with him since I don't even know his first name.

Anyway, Chrisfan, I can understand how all that might be quite a surprise to you because of the way I've come out against the gay agenda on these boards and what I consider to be the "enemy's deception" on the issue. But hopefully that gives you an idea of how I treat gay people.

Now, all that being said, if he wanted to bring his gay lover to my house and make out in front of me, sit on each other's laps and all, I would ask that he didn't out of respect to my beliefs. And, believe it or not, I'm not 100% sure that I'm right about that. I believe that and all that I've posted recently at the moment, but I'm not completely immovable about certain parts of it (i.e. not allowing gays to show affection in my home or at Christian B&Bs). Hopefully this was a refreshing post for you to read, Chrisfan.

[poseidon]

melon1 said:

So please tell me - how do you share the love of God with those you refuse to reach out to?

Chris, I've met a number of lesbians before, one that I worked with for about a week and a half before she left(so I barely got to know her). I've only known to gay guys in my life. The first I hung out with a few times. Then I found out he was gay, but didn't avoid being around him after finding out. The second that I might is my testimony to you of how I treat homosexuals.

His nickname was "Turtle". For some reason, he never told me his real name. We met once. He ended up inviting me to his house where we talked about music a bunch. He was a deadhead. Later that night he approached me with the question of what I thought about gay marriage, since, he said, it was such a big issue at the time. I told him what I thought, having no idea that he was gay, and then after finishing my opinion on it, he informed me that he was gay. My initial reaction:"Lord, what would you have me do?" And what the Lord ended up having me do was to befriend the guy and get to know him. I often went to Wal-Mart where he worked and walked around the place with him while he dustmopped. I made him a mixed tape. I invited him to my house a couple of times. I even went to a movie with him. Did you hear that? Shocked, are you? From time to time I planted seed hoping that God would send another to water it later. God did say,"My word does not come back void," ya know. I accepted him as a friend. I didn't shove my beliefs on him. I learned about his past, what he was all about and basically had a good time hanging out with the guy. I left him, hopefully but not likely, with the ponderance that Jesus might be the real thing. I did all the Lord commanded me to do and I had to relocate, so I haven't seen him again. Unfortunately, I've no way to keep up with him since I don't even know his first name.

Anyway, Chrisfan, I can understand how all that might be quite a surprise to you because of the way I've come out against the gay agenda on these boards and what I consider to be the "enemy's deception" on the issue. But hopefully that gives you an idea of how I treat gay people.

Now, all that being said, if he wanted to bring his gay lover to my house and make out in front of me, sit on each other's laps and all, I would ask that he didn't out of respect to my beliefs. And, believe it or not, I'm not 100% sure that I'm right about that. I believe that and all that I've posted recently at the moment, but I'm not completely immovable about certain parts of it (i.e. not allowing gays to show affection in my home or at Christian B&Bs). Hopefully this was a refreshing post for you to read, Chrisfan.

Was for me anyway. See you in a different "light."